CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted

Bill Ravens · November 14th, 2007, 06:01 PM

OT:
"I've been pushing for *years* for someone to create a device that'd be able to capture digital video *and* a separate audio source simultaneously to the same video file, eliminating post-production sound synching nightmares that come with double system."

Alex...

Take a look at the QC Deck www.nnovia.com

Alex Raskin · November 14th, 2007, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

Take the recorder and projector to the seminar, plug it all in and use the recorder as the playback device into the projector........ very cool

Indeed! I did not know that the box was capable of a playback out of its HDMI output!

David: why not add a Loop mode to the video playback. This way sales people can take your box as a HD video player to the trade shows.

Beats the hell out of any other method of playing HD video in a show booth.

Alex Raskin · November 14th, 2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

If you want to keep the interface clean of cables hanging around you might consider a blutooth output for the headphones....???

How will bluetooth emittance interfere with the wireless mic systems positioned next to the box?

Alex Raskin · November 14th, 2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Alex...

Take a look at the QC Deck www.nnovia.com

nNovia looks cool, but I think only one model, QC Deck, has analog connections - and they only work when you also capture analog video, not digital. Or am I mistaken?

Jeremy Kromberg · November 14th, 2007, 07:02 PM

Are there any? I have heard only 8bit. Rumor has it the new Sony EX1 is 10bit but it is HDSDI out. I hope we get some nice cameras next year to plug into this little gem!

Jim Andrada · November 14th, 2007, 07:06 PM

Well, this may sound like heresy, but firewire input would be nice for cameras without HDMI/SDI etc.

I know the thinking is that component out from the camera should give better (uncompressed) color than firewire m2t, but in reality I've heard a lot of conflicting comments along the lines that capture of component was softer than the firewire capture.

Could just have been a problem re the Blackmagic card, though.

If the component out is really as good as it should be, then component in to this box would be fine, I'm just not sure...

Regardless, having firewire even with all the m2t uglies would give a great option instead of Firestore, Nnovia etc since you could use your own hard drives.

Chris Barcellos · November 14th, 2007, 07:14 PM

Making a film in March with the HV20-- any chance of it being ready by then ?

David Taylor · November 14th, 2007, 07:23 PM

Chris, that's a little too soon for us. But you could consider a "luggable" PC with an Intensity card unless the power cord is a big problem.

Jim, it's unlikely we'll support M2T files on this device. It's extra development effort and it's only a secondary feature as there are other M2T recording options. If you want M2T you can always record to HDV tape simultaneously with recording CineForm files.

Jim Andrada · November 14th, 2007, 07:52 PM

Well, actually I don't want m2t, I want Cineform. I'd just like it if you'd do the conversion in the box from Firewire so I don't ever have to deal with m2t.

I'd be delighted to use the component route, just concerned that the result might be worse than what I would have gotten via Firewire, even with m2t in the middle.

I'd certainly hope that as a part of the development effort you could do some testing to compare the quality you're getting from component -> Cineform in the box vs Firewire -> HDLink -> Cineform and be sure that the component route gave the better quality.

If this were the case for the JVC110 I'd buy your box in a heartbeat.

Alex Raskin · November 14th, 2007, 08:16 PM

Jim, a year ago I had Sony Z1U that only could output Component, and not HDMI, before mpeg compression.

So I've built the whole huge contraption that looked like that: Z1U Component Out -> Blackmagic HD Bridge to HD-SDI -> PC with HD-SDI capture card -> Raid0 recording uncompressed HD.

I did many tests as well.

Sony sent a rep to see how i did it.

I shot a short film like that.

Bottom line: Component out is great, and of course so much better than mpeg-compressed signal. (Disclaimer: at 35Mb/s, mpeg compression might be just fine, but that's not what we get from a $5K Sony cam.)

And, HDMI on V1U is still better than Component on Z1U. V1U outputs 4:2:2 color space over HDMI; Z1U only had 4:2:0 color space.

Component cable CANNOT be too long, since it starts getting interference and signal becomes unusable. Well'shielded Component cables are bulky, heavy, and messy.

HDMI rules :)

That's why Cineform is the new RED for designing this new HDV capture box :)

I owned HDV cams since the very first JVC HD1, and V1U is the first one that is really good - except it does not capture in Cineform Aspect HD format.

Welcome to this forum.

James Huenergardt · November 14th, 2007, 08:24 PM

Z1U only 4:2:0 off the head? Where did you read that?

All my research showed that it was 4:2:2 uncompressed off the Z1U's Component output.

Also, with a device as small as the Cineform recorder, you wouldn't need but 18" or so of component cable, not 50' like I have and was going to try with my Black Magic Intensity Pro card.

Now I need to sell it.

I'm hoping for SDI soon to go with my new XDCam EX, which according to Sony is true 10-bit off the head, not 8-bit in a 10-bit SDI wrapper.

I'll have a mini F900!

Jim Andrada · November 14th, 2007, 08:27 PM

Alex,

There were a couple of threads a couple of months back where someone had posted comparisons obtained from Component -> Blackmagic vs Firewire.

The Firewire capture looked much better - sharper and better color.

Now of course there are a zillion reasons why this might have been so:
Noise/interference on the cable, long cable run, bad cables/connectors, bad A-D in the Blackmagic card, bad D - A in the camera, etc etc etc.

But it did give me pause about using component to get better quality.

Hopefully the Cineform box will eliminate all the problems!

Regardless of all this, I have no doubt that I'll buy one of the Cineform boxes. It deserves to succeed. I might prefer not to have a display so it would be easier to velcro a couple of hard drives to it, though., like I do with my SD 702

By the way, where did you find shielded component cables?

Alex Raskin · November 14th, 2007, 08:27 PM

I have a Xenarc monitor. The booger is 7" diagonal, everything is rather miniature on it.

On its back, the connector is secured by a system of 2 plastic hooks - see image below.

Although Xenarc's cable is not HDMI, principle is the same and I think it would be prudent to engineer the same thing for the Cineform capture box.

David Parks · November 14th, 2007, 09:39 PM

Davids:

What speed Compact Flash are you engineering for. 20MB/sec or 40MB/sec.? I hope this hasn't already been asked. I looked but couldn't see anything.

Just curious if your thinking SANDisk Extreme 3 or Extreme 4.

I think you guys are on to something especially with the new Sony Z7 camera coming out this fits nicely as a flexible recording device.

The price is nice and its 10bit. 1/2 the price of the other guy at 8bit.

Cheers.

David Parks · November 14th, 2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Huenergardt

I'll have a mini F900!

http://www.siliconimaging.com/Digita...eFormTech.html

Actually, in some ways you'll have better than an F900. F900 is 8 bit, F950 is 10 bit. But, HDCAM is 3:1:1, I think at 144mbit.

It's getting really interesting.

November 14th, 2007, 07:02 PM	#35
Jeremy Kromberg New Boot Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 9	10 bit HDMI cameras. Are there any? I have heard only 8bit. Rumor has it the new Sony EX1 is 10bit but it is HDSDI out. I hope we get some nice cameras next year to plug into this little gem!

November 14th, 2007, 07:14 PM	#37
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Making a film in March with the HV20-- any chance of it being ready by then ? __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 14th, 2007, 08:27 PM	#43
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	How to prevent HDMI cable from popping out of connector I have a Xenarc monitor. The booger is 7" diagonal, everything is rather miniature on it. On its back, the connector is secured by a system of 2 plastic hooks - see image below. Although Xenarc's cable is not HDMI, principle is the same and I think it would be prudent to engineer the same thing for the Cineform capture box. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Alex Raskin; November 14th, 2007 at 09:49 PM.

November 14th, 2007, 09:39 PM	#44
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Davids: What speed Compact Flash are you engineering for. 20MB/sec or 40MB/sec.? I hope this hasn't already been asked. I looked but couldn't see anything. Just curious if your thinking SANDisk Extreme 3 or Extreme 4. I think you guys are on to something especially with the new Sony Z7 camera coming out this fits nicely as a flexible recording device. The price is nice and its 10bit. 1/2 the price of the other guy at 8bit. Cheers. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

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November 14th, 2007, 06:01 PM	#31
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	OT: "I've been pushing for years for someone to create a device that'd be able to capture digital video and a separate audio source simultaneously to the same video file, eliminating post-production sound synching nightmares that come with double system." Alex... Take a look at the QC Deck www.nnovia.com

November 14th, 2007, 07:06 PM	#36
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Well, this may sound like heresy, but firewire input would be nice for cameras without HDMI/SDI etc. I know the thinking is that component out from the camera should give better (uncompressed) color than firewire m2t, but in reality I've heard a lot of conflicting comments along the lines that capture of component was softer than the firewire capture. Could just have been a problem re the Blackmagic card, though. If the component out is really as good as it should be, then component in to this box would be fine, I'm just not sure... Regardless, having firewire even with all the m2t uglies would give a great option instead of Firestore, Nnovia etc since you could use your own hard drives.

November 14th, 2007, 07:23 PM	#38
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Chris, that's a little too soon for us. But you could consider a "luggable" PC with an Intensity card unless the power cord is a big problem. Jim, it's unlikely we'll support M2T files on this device. It's extra development effort and it's only a secondary feature as there are other M2T recording options. If you want M2T you can always record to HDV tape simultaneously with recording CineForm files.

November 14th, 2007, 07:52 PM	#39
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Well, actually I don't want m2t, I want Cineform. I'd just like it if you'd do the conversion in the box from Firewire so I don't ever have to deal with m2t. I'd be delighted to use the component route, just concerned that the result might be worse than what I would have gotten via Firewire, even with m2t in the middle. I'd certainly hope that as a part of the development effort you could do some testing to compare the quality you're getting from component -> Cineform in the box vs Firewire -> HDLink -> Cineform and be sure that the component route gave the better quality. If this were the case for the JVC110 I'd buy your box in a heartbeat.

November 14th, 2007, 08:16 PM	#40
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Jim, a year ago I had Sony Z1U that only could output Component, and not HDMI, before mpeg compression. So I've built the whole huge contraption that looked like that: Z1U Component Out -> Blackmagic HD Bridge to HD-SDI -> PC with HD-SDI capture card -> Raid0 recording uncompressed HD. I did many tests as well. Sony sent a rep to see how i did it. I shot a short film like that. Bottom line: Component out is great, and of course so much better than mpeg-compressed signal. (Disclaimer: at 35Mb/s, mpeg compression might be just fine, but that's not what we get from a $5K Sony cam.) And, HDMI on V1U is still better than Component on Z1U. V1U outputs 4:2:2 color space over HDMI; Z1U only had 4:2:0 color space. Component cable CANNOT be too long, since it starts getting interference and signal becomes unusable. Well'shielded Component cables are bulky, heavy, and messy. HDMI rules :) That's why Cineform is the new RED for designing this new HDV capture box :) I owned HDV cams since the very first JVC HD1, and V1U is the first one that is really good - except it does not capture in Cineform Aspect HD format. Welcome to this forum.

November 14th, 2007, 08:24 PM	#41
James Huenergardt Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Chehalis, WA Posts: 513	Z1U only 4:2:0 off the head? Where did you read that? All my research showed that it was 4:2:2 uncompressed off the Z1U's Component output. Also, with a device as small as the Cineform recorder, you wouldn't need but 18" or so of component cable, not 50' like I have and was going to try with my Black Magic Intensity Pro card. Now I need to sell it. I'm hoping for SDI soon to go with my new XDCam EX, which according to Sony is true 10-bit off the head, not 8-bit in a 10-bit SDI wrapper. I'll have a mini F900!