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-   -   CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/107885-cineform-hdmi-recorder-concept-posted.html)

David Taylor November 13th, 2007 03:29 PM

CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted
Hi Guys,

We wanted to keep the momentum moving on the proposed CineForm HDMI Recorder. I've posted a page on our website with the proposed feature specs and a conceptual diagram: http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm. You cannot navigate to the page from our website other than through this direct link.

We'd enjoy any comments....


Salah Baker November 13th, 2007 04:58 PM

WOW!!! Beating a path to your door!!, Oh wait I did that already.

Questions abound.

1 "USB: interface for attachment to record bay" Any USB we choose or CF Proprietary product?
2. “Time code recording (Spec TBD)” woohooo

3 “Ordered play list queue “ (digital signage use) Maybe Ethernet port for remote control and upload/download??

Ray Bell November 13th, 2007 05:16 PM

Let me know when you need a beta tester.....

I'd like to use this on a Canon HV20 from the HDMI port.....

What about using small lap top disk drives that you could mount on
a slide in tray...

That way a person could purchase a couple of trays and populate the tray with what ever size of hard drive they'd want... ??

And you could have a tray reciever (optional) that would be able to plug into your computer for transfer.......either firewire or USB interface.

David Newman November 13th, 2007 05:28 PM

USB is general, so you can record to any media that is fast enough -- about 20MB/s sustained will be needed. We are imagining an optional 2.5" USB drive bay that would be contented by USB, although you could add any third party drive. We will have some issues with disk format, as third party flash media will be typically FAT32 format which has 4GB file size limitation. I'm not a big fan of chunking the files up, but we will have to that if FAT32 media is used (For CineForm 1080p24 you will have about 4minutes per chunck.) We are looking to use UDF as that is compatible to all OSes, OS X, XP/Vista, Linux and supports >4GB files. I'm supprised more aren't using it, Grass Valley Infinity cameras record to UDF REV disks, and they work great. Cross platform support is important to us, that is why this will record MOV or AVI.

Eugenia Loli-Queru November 13th, 2007 05:48 PM

This is a great idea, thanks. If is offered for about $500, I will definitely get one. And if I was rich, this would definitely be the kind of Christmas present I would get to my (video-loving) friends. It's just so cute and useful especially for us HV20 users. Thanks again.

David Taylor November 13th, 2007 05:50 PM


Originally Posted by Salah Baker (Post 774964)
3 “Ordered play list queue “ (digital signage use)

Yes. We think there are lots of remote playout applications, and we intend that this offerts good functionality.<br><br>


Originally Posted by Salah Baker (Post 774964)
Maybe Ethernet port for remote control and upload/download??

Maybe. We were thinking updates could occur through USB. And because all recording media (CF or laptop drive) is detachable, wouldn't it be easy enough to detach the record media from the recorder and plug it in to an Internet-connected PC or laptop?

Anton Galimzyanov November 13th, 2007 05:52 PM

Oh my god! I'm ready for pre-order right now!
btw, how much it could be? Your estimated price, from-to..

About quality modes, I still hope SP is equal to FilmScan1?

Anton Galimzyanov November 13th, 2007 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru (Post 774984)
This is a great idea, thanks. If is offered for about $500, I will definitely get one.

Well, I think it should cost "intensity+Core2Duo-book", but no more!

David Newman November 13th, 2007 06:03 PM

Yes, SP would be FilmScan1 -- of course.

Price, can't say too much at this stage, this thing does a lot more than today's compressed Firewire based DDRs, yet we hope to be competitive in price that style of camera attachable recorders.

Christopher Glaeser November 13th, 2007 06:25 PM

The spec says possible RCA audio. Can the Canon XL H1 XLR audio be easily converted to RCA and still record good audio?


David Taylor November 13th, 2007 06:45 PM


Originally Posted by Christopher Glaeser (Post 775003)
The spec says possible RCA audio. Can the Canon XL H1 XLR audio be easily converted to RCA and still record good audio?

Great question Christopher. We'd like to hear from some knowledgeable people on this subject.

It seems that most of the HDV camcorders either have RCA output or a mini-to-RCA or else a custom output pin. None seem to have XLR outputs, and I think the XLR connectors on the XL H1 is for audio input (to the camera) only. The XL H1 has RCA outputs.

For these reasons it seemed RCA was probably the best choice for these class of cameras. Does anybody see it differently?

James Huenergardt November 13th, 2007 07:09 PM

Ok, here is what would work well for me.

I know you're thinking about SDI in the future, that's great.

But I will be owning a Z1U and EX1, neither of which have HDMI and I don't want to buy a converter as it takes away from the portability of your device. I don't want to have a camera, the Cinform Recorder AND a converter box.

There are a LOT of Z1U owners out there who would want to use this I'm sure.

What would be killer is something with Component, HDMI and SDI to cover all the cameras out there. Maybe that would be too much, but it would help those of us out with multiple cameras.

What I don't want to do is have one device for my Z1U and another for my EX1, unless of course they are cheap enough.

Multiple compact flash card recording would be sweet. Two cards would be great, four even better.

Can't wait to find out more...

Ray Bell November 13th, 2007 08:18 PM

David, A couple of items... obviously this is going to be geared for portability, away from studio shooting...

So, I would suggest instead of RCA jacks that you move to BNC jacks...
why? simply because you can't accidently unplug the connectors when using it out in the field... because they lock in place during use. The BNC jacks also can be sourced with dust caps with chain retainers so you can protect the jack when not in use...
these are very professional...

here's the dust cap http://www.smelectronics.us/SC2005B.pdf

As to CF cards, last year while on a shoot in Bali one of the boat crew had just recieved a camera from the home office.... while on a land excursion
she ended up getting sand on the CF card and when she put the card into the camera the mating connector ended up with bent pins... the camera
was toast... CF cards are cool, the bare pins on the recieving connector are
not cool......

How about the material and the surface finish....

Have you seen the new Zeiss Lens and the finish they are putting on them...


make this baby look and feel like a fine tuned Lambo :-)

I hope you don't mind me slicing and dicing this concept....
we are just brain storming ... right?

Carl Middleton November 13th, 2007 08:27 PM

Looks excellent, and I definitely wouldn't mind a touchscreen interface for a product like this. You shouldn't be looking at the small LCD for quality assessment/focus/color correction reasons, ever... so why not? I think that would improve speed, which would be my main concern with a product like this - easy to set up and not have to worry about it.

I would have to agree with the comments about non-HDMI cameras like the Z1. I would definitely like a setup like this, and I think it would work very well with the camera, especially if the capture framerate you select doesn't have to match the camera's settings. (i.e. the camera outputs 50i, the recorder records the data as deinterlaced 25p (or even 24p with the 4% slowmo). Maybe something component? *crosses fingers*

With a product like this, it would almost force me to save up for something with HDMI, and I kinda like the Z1. :) Wonderful tool to increase quality and productivity - I can think of nothing else that portable that would improve HDV camera owners' quality so much.


Bill Ravens November 13th, 2007 09:51 PM

My own feelings/feedback on this device follows:
1-HDMI is arguably not the best input interface. Prosumer cameras are, presently, using HDMI, however, component or SDI are more consistent with professional level cameras. Further, if HDMI is used, why are there seperate RCA jacks for audio. Audio signals are embedded in HDMI by specification; and, critical surface area could be saved by using a cable incorporating HDMI connector on one end and a breakout of RCA/XLR/BNC on the other end

2-I don't see the reason for incorporating an expensive display. Display of stored content can be accomplished thru the screen on the recording device; already an asset of the user.

3-LAN-C is not a universal command and control interface. Firewire is more common, sharing I/O capability with Fujinon 5 pin or even RS232

4-wild thought: would the design be more future proof by providing a SATA interface to the record deck. Is SATA a feasible interconnect possibility for such a device? A SATA interface provides added value by simultaneously providing for a RAID 0 configuration of CF cards, allowing faster capture/playback data rates.

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