DVD Export tips at DVinfo.net

Adam Gold · November 26th, 2007, 03:38 PM

Hi David(s) (and anyone else with info on this) --

I was wondering if the workflow tips in this article:

http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...Export2DVD.htm

were still valid with the new releases of both Aspect and Premiere. Are there any updates planned for this page?

I have a few questions about it as well:

1) What's the practical difference, besides format, between Cineform HD Export (avi) and Cineform m2t? I've been using m2t because Nero works better with it and I can go back to tape easily with it, but is there an advantage to using the avi format? DV AVI works fine in Nero, but CFHD AVI instantly crashes the app. I suppose I could, as suggested on the page, re-import the CFHD AVI into a new project and re-render it out as CF m2t, but it's extra steps I'd love to avoid if possible.

2) It's always been recommended to me to use Upper Field First when rendering HDV, as that's the native format. But the page says to use Lower Field First. Is there really a difference at this phase of the project, and if so, what? It appears to me that the output file looks less "jittery" (especially in slo-mo scenes) when exporting with Upper Field First, but what do I know?

David Newman · November 26th, 2007, 04:24 PM

Unfortunately that tech note is too simple. Now that we have progressive 1080 sources, we should have a tech note for that too. There are just too many option to have a best instruction for everyone. As I'm a big fan of progressive encoding, I wouldn't use that tech note.

1) Sound like you should submit a bug report to Nero as CineForm AVI are far better than M2T exports.

2) NTSC is lower field first for SD, and upper field first for HD. Interlace must die, please help by saying no. Shot 24,25 or 30p and master that way, you will no longer ever use upper or lower field first.

Adam Gold · November 26th, 2007, 04:44 PM

As always, thanks for the very swift reply.

As I'm stuck with 60i cams for the foreseeable future, would you suggest exporting as Progressive and having the software de-interlace the output file? I've always been told it's not only unnecessary but undesirable, as the TV set/DVD player does a better job of deinterlacing when necessary.

And while I've always assumed that the CFHD AVI is a much cleaner file, my results after burning to DVD show that the m2t is near-HD quality on a 65" screen, while the version rendered to CFHD AVI and then back to m2t for burning looked, well, not so great.

(I should clarify that the CFHD AVI file only crashes Nero when trying to play from HDD using the Nero Player, but when using the AVI as a source for burning a DVD, the problem is that no matter what the settings are, the picture gets squeezed anamorphically resulting in a pic that's both letterboxed AND pillar-boxed).

David Newman · November 26th, 2007, 04:56 PM

Again is sounds like Nero support issue. CineForm AVI are anamorphically correct elsewhere, so Nero is confused.

If you are going out SD DVD, and deinterlace from 1080i, you have the vertical headroom needed for a high res/ progressive output, which would look much better on a progressive scan DVD player. That de-interlacing advice you received was for SD sources.

Ian Hay · November 26th, 2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

Again is sounds like Nero support issue. CineForm AVI are anamorphically correct elsewhere, so Nero is confused.

David - If we are talking about situations where a player or other app will display CHFD AVIs incorrectly in a "squeezed"-looking manner, i.e. displaying 1440x1080 at an incorrect 1.000 pixel aspect ratio, rather than correctly identifying and displaying at 1.333, then I have to respectfully disagree.

I opened a support ticket a couple of months ago describing this exact problem with other apps, including Windows Media Player, Quicktime (in that case both Avis and Mov's), and Sony Vegas Platinum 8.0 (but interestingly NOT with Vegas Pro 8.0, which recognizes and displays CHFD AVIs correctly).

In each case, those apps display CFHD AVIs incorrectly horizontally squeezed. I have updated to the latest Cineform Neo HDV; Recognizing the Sony Vegas bug you have previously identified, I have also ensured that the only CFHD.DLL on my system is the one in /windows/system32, and have renamed (disabled) the older one installed in the Vegas program folder. Still, to this day, each of those apps display CFHD AVIs incorrectly.

I am absolutely convinced that there is something in Cineform's codec that does not properly communicate to apps the fact that HDV AVIs are in a 1.333 pixel aspect ratio, and should be displayed that way.

Unfortunately, Cineform support closed my ticket for reasons I don't entirely agree with (citing Sony Vegas' incorrect use of the older codec that it ships with, which cannot logically be the problem).

I haven't pursued it, because frankly, I'm not a professional user (only a hobbiest when I have time), and it works fine in Vegas Pro 8.0, which is what I use. However, given your comment above, I wanted to draw your attention to a potentially more pervasive anamorphic display issue with CFHD AVIs than you might currently be aware of.

Thanks,
Ian.

Adam Gold · November 26th, 2007, 06:04 PM

Hm. The plot thickens.

In my case, the CFHD file does play fine on WMP, but crashes Nero Player or imports into Nero Vision incorrectly. So in my case I think David is probably right and that it's a Nero issue. I'll pursue with them.

David, so are you saying yes, I should deinterlace and render as progressive to CFHD AVI for best results?

David Newman · November 26th, 2007, 06:07 PM

Ian, it is unrelated. Window Media Player works fine (except under Vista where WMP is broken), all DirectShow players work fine. If you are currently having issues then re-file a ticket. Older apps that use Video for Window may not know how to ready the aspect ratio, yet we are providing the information for those that can use it.

David Newman · November 26th, 2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Gold

Hm. The plot thickens.

In my case, the CFHD file does play fine on WMP, but crashes Nero Player or imports into Nero Vision incorrectly. So in my case I think David is probably right and that it's a Nero issue. I'll pursue with them.

David, so are you saying yes, I should deinterlace and render as progressive to CFHD AVI for best results?

It is a different look, but for anything (other than sports) it will have you higher quality results IMHO.

Adam Gold · November 26th, 2007, 07:24 PM

Aye, there's the rub. Most of what I do is sports with a lot of fast action, crashing zooms and whip pans.

Hm.

Adam Gold · November 27th, 2007, 03:20 PM

David, what's your feeling on using Encore CS3 as the DVD authoring tool using the CFHD AVI as the source file? Might as well try it as I already have it installed, until I figure out this Nero quirk...

David Newman · November 27th, 2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Gold

David, what's your feeling on using Encore CS3 as the DVD authoring tool using the CFHD AVI as the source file? Might as well try it as I already have it installed, until I figure out this Nero quirk...

That is what I do.

Adam Gold · November 27th, 2007, 06:45 PM

That's all I needed to hear. As always, thanks for the guidance...

November 26th, 2007, 03:38 PM	#1
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	DVD Export tips Hi David(s) (and anyone else with info on this) -- I was wondering if the workflow tips in this article: http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...Export2DVD.htm were still valid with the new releases of both Aspect and Premiere. Are there any updates planned for this page? I have a few questions about it as well: 1) What's the practical difference, besides format, between Cineform HD Export (avi) and Cineform m2t? I've been using m2t because Nero works better with it and I can go back to tape easily with it, but is there an advantage to using the avi format? DV AVI works fine in Nero, but CFHD AVI instantly crashes the app. I suppose I could, as suggested on the page, re-import the CFHD AVI into a new project and re-render it out as CF m2t, but it's extra steps I'd love to avoid if possible. 2) It's always been recommended to me to use Upper Field First when rendering HDV, as that's the native format. But the page says to use Lower Field First. Is there really a difference at this phase of the project, and if so, what? It appears to me that the output file looks less "jittery" (especially in slo-mo scenes) when exporting with Upper Field First, but what do I know?

November 26th, 2007, 04:24 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Unfortunately that tech note is too simple. Now that we have progressive 1080 sources, we should have a tech note for that too. There are just too many option to have a best instruction for everyone. As I'm a big fan of progressive encoding, I wouldn't use that tech note. 1) Sound like you should submit a bug report to Nero as CineForm AVI are far better than M2T exports. 2) NTSC is lower field first for SD, and upper field first for HD. Interlace must die, please help by saying no. Shot 24,25 or 30p and master that way, you will no longer ever use upper or lower field first. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 26th, 2007, 04:56 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Again is sounds like Nero support issue. CineForm AVI are anamorphically correct elsewhere, so Nero is confused. If you are going out SD DVD, and deinterlace from 1080i, you have the vertical headroom needed for a high res/ progressive output, which would look much better on a progressive scan DVD player. That de-interlacing advice you received was for SD sources. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 26th, 2007, 06:07 PM	#7
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Ian, it is unrelated. Window Media Player works fine (except under Vista where WMP is broken), all DirectShow players work fine. If you are currently having issues then re-file a ticket. Older apps that use Video for Window may not know how to ready the aspect ratio, yet we are providing the information for those that can use it. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

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November 26th, 2007, 04:44 PM	#3
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	As always, thanks for the very swift reply. As I'm stuck with 60i cams for the foreseeable future, would you suggest exporting as Progressive and having the software de-interlace the output file? I've always been told it's not only unnecessary but undesirable, as the TV set/DVD player does a better job of deinterlacing when necessary. And while I've always assumed that the CFHD AVI is a much cleaner file, my results after burning to DVD show that the m2t is near-HD quality on a 65" screen, while the version rendered to CFHD AVI and then back to m2t for burning looked, well, not so great. (I should clarify that the CFHD AVI file only crashes Nero when trying to play from HDD using the Nero Player, but when using the AVI as a source for burning a DVD, the problem is that no matter what the settings are, the picture gets squeezed anamorphically resulting in a pic that's both letterboxed AND pillar-boxed).

November 26th, 2007, 06:04 PM	#6
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Hm. The plot thickens. In my case, the CFHD file does play fine on WMP, but crashes Nero Player or imports into Nero Vision incorrectly. So in my case I think David is probably right and that it's a Nero issue. I'll pursue with them. David, so are you saying yes, I should deinterlace and render as progressive to CFHD AVI for best results?

November 26th, 2007, 07:24 PM	#9
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Aye, there's the rub. Most of what I do is sports with a lot of fast action, crashing zooms and whip pans. Hm.

November 27th, 2007, 03:20 PM	#10
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	David, what's your feeling on using Encore CS3 as the DVD authoring tool using the CFHD AVI as the source file? Might as well try it as I already have it installed, until I figure out this Nero quirk...

November 27th, 2007, 06:45 PM	#12
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	That's all I needed to hear. As always, thanks for the guidance...