DV Info Net

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   CineForm Software Showcase (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/)
-   -   In a nutshell, what is CineForm? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/115554-nutshell-what-cineform.html)

Andy Tejral January 15th, 2008 01:03 AM

What is Cineform?
 
OK, call me thick. But I just don't grok Cineform. They call it an Intermediate but they never use the word codec. How do you view digital video without a codec?

But that's what it is, no? You take the HDV encoded material off the camera and re-encode it as Cineform? And in this codec, you have enhanced 'workability'?

Assuming this is correct, it is the same concept as Canopus' HQ codec? And how do they compare?

Someone please reply with an answer fit to be made a 'sticky.'

TIA

Matti Remonen January 15th, 2008 05:01 AM

It is an intermediate codec, i.e. it is an intermediate format + codec.

See here

Hope this helps...

Andy Tejral January 15th, 2008 11:20 AM

Nope, I read that (didn't see the word codec before though--so that comformation helps). That explains how it works but not why I want to use it.

And it doesn't compare it to Canopus HQ.

Maybe that's my problem--someone compare it to something else so I can tell the difference.

Carl Middleton January 15th, 2008 12:20 PM

Andy,

It's an excellent codec - in my opinion the best and most flexible on the market. Within Premiere Pro, it will allow realtime effects that Cineform provides - covering the basics that you use on most every clip. (Pan, Zoom, Rotate, Color Corrector, Color Balance, Speed changes, etc.) No playback renders whatsoever.

It's also visually lossless. This means that without a technical evaluation, you will not be able to see any loss of quality between the original and a re-render to apply an effect, etc. This is a huge improvement over HDV/m2t or other lossy formats. I've used AspectHD for about 6-8 months now, and it made an unbelievable difference in my workflow.

It also provides a tool, HDLink, that not only captures and converts to Cineform, but can export m2t files back to tape, without using the Export features in Premiere or another application. HDLink does not re-render to do this - it spits the digital file out directly. It greatly simplifies delivery or archive on HDV tape.

Carl

David Taylor January 15th, 2008 12:30 PM

Andy, here is a thread with similar questions. Please take a look at this: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=108749

In short form, CineForm designs compressed Digital Intermediate workflows. In this case DI means that you convert camera footage - which does not have the characteristics to withstand a multi-generation post workflow - into a format that is designed for post. Our CineForm Intermediate, CineForm 444, and CineForm RAW formats are compressed (yes, through our codec) files that are designed to be indistinguishable from source files, yet hold up through a multi-gen post workflow. Not everybody needs CineForm, but if you're doing a lot of color correction, effects work, etc, in post, then you need a format that will hold up to the demands you're placing on your images.

Our codec is our underlying technology, it doesn't represent the complete product. Our products include our codec, but also include image processing software for telecine removal, deinterlacing, spatial resampling, speed change (i.e. 25p to 24p conversion), image flip (for 35mm adapters), etc. We also allow you to convert most any source format into CineForm files. This allows using many different cameras in your shoot but using a single format for post. IIn general the product I've described in this paragraph is our "Neo" family.

We also offer products optimized for Premiere that include our real-time processing engine that replaces the engine within Premiere. This will allow (machine dependent) 3 - 6 HD streams to play simultaneously on the timeline with no rendering, including color correction, transitions, titles, etc.

You can see our quality analyses here: http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm. BTW, our quality is high enough that we've now become both an in-camera acquisition format plus a digital cinema projection format.

Circling back, our codec is our underlying technology, but it's all the software that goes around our codec that makes the product.

I hope this helps....

Jonathan Plotkin January 16th, 2008 11:33 AM

Any updates on native Mac versions of Cineform products? Have any comparisons between Cineform and ProRes codecs been done? Thanks!

David Taylor January 16th, 2008 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Plotkin (Post 809311)
Any updates on native Mac versions of Cineform products?

Not other than we have posted on our website. We've added more CineForm RAW capability recently on Mac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Plotkin (Post 809311)
Have any comparisons between Cineform and ProRes codecs been done? Thanks!

No. It's difficult to do that comparison right now because software tools outside of FCP/Motion seem to interpret ProRes as 8 bits, not 10 bits. This is true in AE which is where we would often perform these kinds of tests. But ProRes is a fine codec from the standpoint of visual quality. Instead we prefer to focus on the differences such as:

- 12-bit CineForm 444 (RGB). Pro Res does not have an RGB mode
- Alpha Channel mode (not yet shipping on Mac, but soon)
- CineForm RAW workflow for the new generation of Bayer-format cameras
- Spatial resolutions above 2K
- Cross-platform (Windows/Mac) and cross-applications (even on Mac) compatibility. This is very useful for collaborative workflows when using different tools. On Mac CineForm is interpreted as extended precision in FCP/Motion, PPro/AE, Media 100, Pomfort, and probably many others we haven't tested in detail.
- When we finish porting HD Link to Mac, then the myriad conversion and image processing tools (inverse telecine, deinterlacing, spatial resampling, image flip, speed change, etc) might be another reason to use CineForm.

When your workflow needs the above features CineForm is an obvious choice. If you have the option to use either CineForm or Pro Res, and the above features aren't relevant for your project, then either codec will do an outstanding job.

Jonathan Plotkin January 16th, 2008 01:20 PM

It's such a pleasure to get a detailed and honest response to this kind of question - and fast too! Thanks so much, David.

I wonder if there will be more interest in your products from Mac-only users like me when your hard drive recorder comes out - that's what got me interested anyway.

Thanks again!

Keith Malone February 23rd, 2008 07:21 AM

In a nutshell, what is CineForm?
 
Hi, I've heard a lot of talk about Cineform but can anyone explain to me in a nutshell what it does and how it can be useful to me for editing HD footage from within Vegas 8.0? Sorry for the very basic question, but hope somebody will take the time to answer!

George Kroonder February 23rd, 2008 07:41 AM

Cineform is a codec, primarily targeted for use as an "intermediate codec".

This means in a typical workflow you capture to one or more source codecs/formats (HDV, MPEG2 Log GOP, etc.), convert to a single intermediate codec/format (Cineform, for example) for "post" editing and compositing and then render out in whatever format(s) you need.

Cineform is a codec that favours speed and quality, thus renders files that are larger than, lets say, MPEG2 L-GOP but smaller than uncompressed video, which is another format that is often used for the edit/composite stage.

You can also capture video directly in Cineform using the EX1 HD-SDI which will give you true 10bit 4:2:2 captures which is much better than using the 4:2:0 MPEG2 recorded on the SxS.

Cineform is usefull to standardize your workflow on one format and for speed as well as quality with still some advantages over uncompressed video, diskspace wise.

George/

Graham Hickling February 23rd, 2008 09:05 PM

If one looks beyond it's application in Vegas, Cineform is more than just a codec. For example, within Premiere it also provides a real-time effects engine.

The Cineform website has an introduction to it's 'product families' here: http://www.cineform.com/products/default.htm

Bill Ravens February 23rd, 2008 10:05 PM

One thing I've noticed, speaking as a Vegas user, Cineform seems to be the one intermediate that produces repeatable and reliable results. So, AFAIK, this is an intermediate I COUNT on. I'm using it to master everything I do. Any discrepancies for follow on renders, and I can be pretty sure it's not Cineform's fault. That counts for a LOT in my book.

David Taylor February 24th, 2008 10:05 AM

What Is CineForm?
 
I'm glad this was made into a sticky as the question comes up about monthly.

In short form, CineForm designs compressed Digital Intermediate workflows. In this case DI means that you convert camera footage - which does not have proper fidelity characteristics to withstand a multi-generation post workflow - into a new format that is designed for post. This new format is one of our CineForm Intermediate, CineForm 444, and CineForm RAW codec formats. These formats are lightly compressed formats, and are specifically designed to be indistinguishable from source files, and also to hold up through a multi-generation post workflow.

Not everybody will choose to use CineForm. But if your workflow includes the following, CineForm can help:

o Heavy color correction or effects work in post (these push images a lot, exposing compression limitations of camera formats)

o Need for pre-processing of camera footage, including inverse telecine, deinterlacing, spatial resampling, image flip, speed change (such as 25p-to-24p), etc.

o Mixing of different camera formats. We solve this by converting virtually all formats to CineForm files.

o Need RGB or RGBA processing. CineForm offers the only practical RGB or RGBA compressed formats.

o Need cross-platform compatibility. Cineform files work both on Windows and MacOS.

o Need 10-bit processing. 10-bit (versus 8 bit) provides extra fidelity in post, especially when you're "pushing" your images a lot.

o Higher-than-HD footage. We offer real-time, multi-stream workflows not only at HD, but at 2K and 4K also.

o If you want extra performance out of your PC. The nature of our Wavelet compression allows many real-time streams on modern PCs.

UNDERLYING TECHNOLOGY AND PRODUCTS
Our codec is our underlying technology, it doesn't represent our complete products. Our products of course include our codec, but also include image processing software for telecine removal, deinterlacing, spatial resampling, speed change (i.e. 25p to 24p conversion), image flip (for 35mm adapters), etc. We also allow you to convert most any source format into CineForm files. This allows using many different cameras in your shoot but using a single format for post. In general the product I've described in this paragraph is our "Neo" family: http://www.cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm.

We also offer products optimized for Premiere that include our real-time processing engine that replaces the engine within Premiere. This will allow (machine dependent) 3 - 6 HD streams to play simultaneously on the timeline with no rendering, including color correction, transitions, titles, etc. This describes our Aspect HD or Prospect HD/2K/4K family: http://www.cineform.com/products/Aspect-Prospect.htm. Among other differences, files compressed with Aspect HD are 8 bits in depth and Prospect HD/2K/4K files are 10 or 12 bits in depth. For those interested in seeing the difference between 8 and 10 bit images when "pushed" in post, look here: http://www.cineform.com/products/Asp...pect.htm#10bit.

VISUAL QUALITY
You can see our published quality analyses here: http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm. You'll notice that we offer visual fidelity that exceeds the respected HDCam SR format that is routinely used for source acquisition for film/television projects. In part, our quality is achieved by offering a large "head room" across varying image scene complexity that maintains the original source quality better than other formats. Because of our high quality CineForm compression has become i) an in-camera acquisition format ii) source acquisition format for direct-to-disk recorders, iii) a digital cinema projection format, and iv) a long-term archive format, including for all content delivered by Microsoft on Xbox Live Marketplace.

Circling back for emphasis, our codec is our underlying technology, but it's all the software that goes around our codec that makes the product.

PERFORMANCE
And we can't forget to mention performance. The CineForm codec in general was optimized for very high performance. The Wavelet nature of our codec allows unique multi-resolution decoder characteristics that we exploit for high performance within many NLEs. Further, within Premiere Pro, we have our own real-time, multi-stream video engine that replaces the engine in Premiere. Think of the Cineform engine like having a hardware accelerator card but performed in software. We are often 2X-4X faster than native M2T editing, although this depends on the performance of your machine.

CROSS PLATFORM
Cineform is unique in offering cross-platform compatibility on Mac and Windows for those with a need for a shared workflow. CineForm files work on both Windows and Mac. In addition, we have a re-wrapping utility that replaces the AVI wrapper with an MOV wrapper (and vice versa) without touching the underlying compression.

Pat Reddy February 24th, 2008 01:50 PM

I use Cineform's Neo HDV, and it is the single most important post-processing tool I have. I often perform multiple renders using Virtualdub, Vegas, and Cinecraft Encoder Basic, and the Cineform tool preserves resolution and image quality throughout the series of renders.

Pat

Ryan Mueller March 4th, 2008 07:34 PM

So, is there currently a way to inverse telecine 24P footage with cineform on the mac? I am in desperate need and would buy it today if so.

Thanks,
Ryan

David Newman March 4th, 2008 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Mueller (Post 837474)
So, is there currently a way to inverse telecine 24P footage with cineform on the mac? I am in desperate need and would buy it today if so.

Thanks,
Ryan


Ryan, we very much want this also, but too many projects are delaying this feature. Currently using HDLink under emulation is the only solution.

Brian Luce March 18th, 2008 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens (Post 831749)
One thing I've noticed, speaking as a Vegas user, Cineform seems to be the one intermediate that produces repeatable and reliable results. .

What other IC's are there for vegas users?

Keith Malone March 25th, 2008 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Taylor (Post 831982)
Further, within Premiere Pro, we have our own real-time, multi-stream video engine that replaces the engine in Premiere.

Hi David, are there any plans to introduce an effects engine for Vegas? Or is there one already?

Keith

David Newman March 25th, 2008 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Malone (Post 848174)
Hi David, are there any plans to introduce an effects engine for Vegas? Or is there one already?

Keith

Vegas doesn't support the replacement of the playback/effects engine, but all NLEs have one.

Sean Walsh April 9th, 2008 05:18 PM

In plain English...what the heck is CineForm?
 
Okay, I've read the above posts - I've even tried to read the CineForm website!

The two Davids (Taylor and Newman) give great technical answers - but to be honest, it's engineering speak!

Dare I suggest that you get this question every month or so because, while succeeding in supplying loads and loads of information, you are failing to communicate clearly....to idiots like me at least.

I don't care how it does it, I'm not interested if it has a big block hemi under the hood - what I need to know is will it get me from A to B quickly and safely - and in great comfort.

I read that to fully exploit PPro CS3 you really need CineForm or a dedicated Matrox card - and I reckon CineForm is by all accounts a great addition to an edit system.

But please, for us simple, stupid producers...please create an idiot's guide using plain English to explain what it does.

Think of it an an elevator pitch - 20 seconds to explain what it does and how it can improve the editing experience....

If you can get that right - you'll have, at the same time, started building an effective marketing campaign...after all, fools like me can't buy the product if we don't understand what it does!

David Newman April 9th, 2008 07:00 PM

Other than -- "CineForm saves you time and money, without sacrificing quality" -- I don't do marketing speak.

So I open it up to the users, help us create the elevator pitch that even producers will understand. ;)

Paul Mailath April 9th, 2008 08:31 PM

I'll most probably regret sticking my bib in but..

A friend explained it to me (I have trouble understanding the concept as well) - yes I've read the details on the site and all the posts on here

let's take a simple scene where a man stands with his hands by his side and then scratches his head. With 35mm we would have a series of sequential shots of the hand going up and down - complete images 1 through 50. With video we would have the same but the images would be interlaced - half images.

With HDV we are trying to fit a lot of information on an existing media (miniDV) and so instead of complete images 1 through 50 we have a complete image 1 and then we only record the data that has changed (the moving hand) and then we have a complete image again at frame 8 or 15 (I'm not sure of the figures).

If you want to look at frame 3 or 6, your NLE has to recreate that frame from the complete frame plus all the changes. Cineform does that before you start the editing process.

there is also the fact that m2v or mpeg files are compressed files and editing direct from them means you lose even more data when you've finished. Cineform creates a files that 'looks' as good as the original in an AVI format which is better for editing.

This may be completely wrong, absolute rubbish and totally untrue but it made sense to me so I bought the program.

Since when did 'marketing speak' fit in the the facts anyway!

Graham Hickling April 9th, 2008 09:27 PM

OK, foolishly getting on the elevator...

"If you are intending to edit HDV on CS3, AspectHD has at least 3 cool features. First, as you transfer your footage from your camera to computer you can set it up so that your footage is converted on the fly from MPEG2 to a CFHD-codec avi file. These avi files require much less grunt from your computer to process, you can edit and re-edit them multiple times without losing much quality, and they are fast to render into other formats (like DVD-mpeg, or flash, or whatever).

In comparison, editing raw HDV files on CS3 will feel sluggish, render times are longer, and if you edit them repeatedly their quality deteriorates fast.

Second, the Cineform codec gives you a high-quality way to store your edited footage with fairly modest file sizes - prior to Cineform a lot of people used uncompressed or huffyuv codecs to store stuff, and those files were huge! So if you are creating DVDs now, you can go back and create BluRay disks later once you have the gear.

Third, cineform files play nicely with many other software applications - most anything that accepts avi files can play or edit them. And Cineform provides a little app called HDLink that will losslessly rewrap them as movs for software that wants movs rather than avis (e.g. if you need to move back and forwards between Mac and PC)."

Ding - OK elevator doors opening so I'll stop there. If you had been going up another floor I would have mentioned:

4) AspectHD enables quite a few real-time effects and transitions (color correction, fades, dissolves etc) so you can preview them without rendering;

5) HDLink can do cool stuff on the fly like deinterlacing, framerate changes, and pulldowns; and

6)there's a tempting upgrade pathway if you ever want to get into really high-quality stuff, like 10-bit processing, 2K and 4K workflows ... yadayada.

Bob Hart April 10th, 2008 02:57 AM

In terms of editing ease and applying effects :-


Cineform = pulling a shiny smooth thin wire over a fence.

M2T = pulling a heavy dogchain over a fence.

Ron Evans April 10th, 2008 06:58 AM

I'll try a shorter version of Graham's explanation.
HDV( MPEG2) is packaged in groups of 15 frames so that anything other than the first needs the information from the others to assemble the picture. It uses less information to record.
Cineform and other intermediates recreates the individual frames with all their information for easy editing and processing. IT consequently creates a bigger file depending on settings but normally 4 or 5 times the files size of HDV.
Benefit is less load on the PC for editing( doesn't have to decode 15 GOP as well as manipulate effects required). Cons are bigger files sizes and consequently need for faster throughput from drives while editing.

Ron Evans

Pat Reddy June 2nd, 2008 10:41 PM

elevator door closes... lurch

Gee it feels like I just bought a better camera, but it's the same one I had before I started using the Cineform software. Now my files have all the frame information I want, more color resolution, and I can edit, re-edit and pass the files from one application to another with no visible loss of details and all the rich colors and tonalities that I've been trying to pull out of that scene.

Ding... door opens

Pat

Simon Denny June 2nd, 2008 11:36 PM

I'm using Sony Vegas 8 with a Sony Z1, which CineForm product is suitable for me?
Regrads
Simon

David Kirlew June 3rd, 2008 06:35 AM

Simon the Neo products are suited for non Premiere workflows as Prospect/Aspect uses a real time engine from CineForm to accelerate workflows.

Pat Reddy June 3rd, 2008 09:57 PM

Simon, I think you would want to be using Neo HDV. Vegas has Cineform codecs, but these only function within Vegas. If you add Neo HDV, then you can access higher quality versions of Cineform files with Vegas or any other software that uses AVI files.

Pat

Robert Bobson August 4th, 2008 03:04 PM

export line format
 
If cineform converts any camera format (1080i, 720p, 1080p?) into it's intermediary format so I can edit them all together, then when I'm finished editing do I get to decide which format to "output" onto videotape?

If so , then I shoot my fast action motion scenes in 720p, and my beautiful tableaux scenes in 1080i, and then edit everything together and get the best of both worlds?

Ahh, but then I suppose if I export to 1080i, my fast action motion scenes will still show motion distortion. But at least I'd have a choice at the end as to which format serves the majority of my footage best!

thanks for your help

Rob Rippe June 4th, 2009 05:19 AM

Elevator: I missed my floor, could some one hit seven for me, thanks...

I have a couple different things running through my head..

First, I'm not a regular poster, so I hope I'm following correct edict...

Here is some help for understanding the complex geek side of HD that I just read:
The article called "Understanding HD formats" by Videoguys.com.
It's a very nice resource for understanding all the ever-changing flavors of HD.
found here:
Videoguys Guide to Understanding HD Formats

Cineform questions I could use help with:

(If I understand correctly).. NeoScene will get me out of GOP / iframe workflow?
(could someone confirm this?)
That alone would be worth the price of admission!

So if I have HDV 60i footage, I can convert it to 24p (at the same time de-interlace the footage). Yes?
With little quality loss?
NeoScene (any Cineform product) works on capture only? Or existing footage on a drive also?

Mac workflow:
Cineform format will become ProRes?
HQ or standard?
Does it have a smaller ProRes file size? (or is that only in the PC AVI side of things?).
NeoScene offers a better workflow than ProRes alone?
Or is the main advantage true 24p workflow?
and lastly, can I get smoother slowmotion with it?

Thanks everyone!

David Taylor June 4th, 2009 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Rippe (Post 1153809)
NeoScene will get me out of GOP / iframe workflow?
(could someone confirm this?)

Correct! Neo Scene files convert out of long-GOP interframe coding into CineForm's more editing-friendly I-Frame Wavelet format.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Rippe (Post 1153809)
So if I have HDV 60i footage, I can convert it to 24p (at the same time de-interlace the footage). Yes?
With little quality loss?

Yes. IF you shoot 60i you can deinterlacing to 30p or remove telecine to get 24p. Telecine removal restores 24p regardless of whether you shot 24p-embedded-in-60i or whether you shot straight interlaced.

Quality loss? No - it's why you use a digital intermediate format like CineForm.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Rippe (Post 1153809)
NeoScene (any Cineform product) works on capture only? Or existing footage on a drive also?

Neo Scene (Mac) is only a file-based converter. If you shoot HDV (tape) you need to use a program like QT Pro to ingest your HDV tape into files and then convert with Neo Scene. Neo Scene Win also captures directly from tape while converting to CineForm files, so this is a feature difference between Win and Mac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Rippe (Post 1153809)
Mac workflow:
Cineform format will become ProRes?
HQ or standard?
Does it have a smaller ProRes file size? (or is that only in the PC AVI side of things?).
NeoScene offers a better workflow than ProRes alone?
Or is the main advantage true 24p workflow?
and lastly, can I get smoother slowmotion with it?

Neo Scene converts to ProRes HQ not standard. The reason is that all CineForm files are always 10 bits, so we wanted to support the ProRes equivalent. But ProRes HQ files are almost twice the file size of CineForm files.

CineForm has different features than ProRes. Some people will prefer ProRes so we included it as a destination format separate from CineForm. Its (ProRes) big advantage is it has full access to the FCP RT engine. If you add an effect or title to a CineForm file you'll need to render in FCP. This is because the FCP RT engine is not made available to any third parties. (BTW, CineForm works great in iMovie for those with simpler workflows).

The CineForm advantage of Neo Scene on Mac is definitely the 24p workflow. There isn't a good way to get to 24p otherwise. But you also have easy cross-platform compatibility with CineForm files - not so with ProRes, although this feature may not be needed by all. Also, CineForm files are properly interpreted by AE as 10-bit files. Last time we checked ProRes files were interpreted by AE as 8 bits. Finally, if you upgrade to Neo HD you get CineForm's new Active Metadata workflow using First Light which is our non-destructive image development application (think Lightroom for video files but more powerful).

Rob Rippe June 4th, 2009 10:16 AM

David, great help!
Thank you!



I didn't know the details on I-Frame Wavelet format. So found this write-up on codecs (if anyone is also looking for details, here is the link)

Issue Date: October 1, 2007

THE TRUTH ABOUT CODECS - PART 1
Heath Firestone

THE TRUTH ABOUT CODECS - PART 1 | Articles | Post Magazine


PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER: CODECS - PART 2

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER: CODECS - PART 2 | Articles | Post Magazine


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:43 AM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network