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Old April 8th, 2008, 12:42 PM   #1
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Cineform and FCP

Hi

1. Is anybody using cineform codecs under FCP with any degree of success in commercial production?

2. Does cineform work in PP3 under mac, raw support?

3. Is there anything I can do to minimize the chroma and luma shift in FCP when working in Cineform timeline and raw footage?

4. Any way to export footage with alpha channel from FCP?

So far the best solution to use cineform raw footage from SI2K has been to convert all footage to ProRez or Uncompressed 10bit YUV - very time consuming and makes the raw workflow non-existent

Maybe I am missing something very simple?
Does anybody have the same problems on mac?

Thank You
-Kaspar Kallas
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Old April 8th, 2008, 12:51 PM   #2
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1. Yes, many projects, although fewer RAW projects as the metadata controls aren't out yet (only a few weeks away -- some of the new feature of Mac will be at NAB.)

2. No more capabilities than FCP on the Mac. For CS3 we are still recommend Windows.

3. There is only a gamma shift if you use AVI in FCP. This is an FCP bug, it assumes all AVIs are 1.8 gamma and 8-bit, neither is the case with CineForm. CineForm MOV files don't gamma shift. There is nothing CineForm can do, Apple needs to fix that. We only recommend using CineForm MOVs in FCP.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 02:49 PM   #3
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Thank you for a swift reply...

The gamma shift you mention is for playback and since the Mov seems to work fine on later SI builds not really a problem. (if somebody is wondering - you have to disable all on video rendering wireframe+image, safe areas and etc, then the image is constant between playback and still)

But now move a piece of text onto the image and hit render - if you have RGB checked in timeline options you get green image?
Ok so lets work in YUV because FCP render doesn't do more than 8bit RGB anyway - hit play and you get the shifts I have been talking about.

Hope this helps to reproduce the bug and squash it for good!

Thank You
-Kaspar
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Old April 14th, 2008, 03:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman View Post
1. Yes, many projects, although fewer RAW projects as the metadata controls aren't out yet (only a few weeks away -- some of the new feature of Mac will be at NAB.)

2. No more capabilities than FCP on the Mac. For CS3 we are still recommend Windows.

3. There is only a gamma shift if you use AVI in FCP. This is an FCP bug, it assumes all AVIs are 1.8 gamma and 8-bit, neither is the case with CineForm. CineForm MOV files don't gamma shift. There is nothing CineForm can do, Apple needs to fix that. We only recommend using CineForm MOVs in FCP.
If you know somebody that can edit project in FCP with follow conditions:
1. Encoder versions on camera Cineform 3.0
2. .AVI format
3. Missed second monitor for preview on FCP
4. Choppy image even on small timeline monitor (on very powerfull Mac)

Let me know. Our Bulgarian editors and also editor invited from Munchen Germany refuse to do that. If you know somebody that get cheap and can edit in effective manier with this conditions (not wedding or indie editor)- let me know.
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Old April 15th, 2008, 12:39 AM   #5
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We run a post house, have about 10 feature length project, many shorts and adds.

Also the first ever SI2K full feature to be released:
http://cineuropa.org/film.aspx?documentID=76599

If interested contact me:
kaspar@digitalsputnik.com

-Kaspar
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Old April 16th, 2008, 01:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaspar Kallas View Post
We run a post house, have about 10 feature length project, many shorts and adds.

Also the first ever SI2K full feature to be released:
http://cineuropa.org/film.aspx?documentID=76599

If interested contact me:
kaspar@digitalsputnik.com

-Kaspar

And you edited it with:
1. Camera codec version 3.0
2. WITHOUT second preview monitor on FCP
3. With choppy image on small timeline monitor?

Can I know the name of this editor I will hire it for a long time.
Eto voobshte neseriozno. Takie montajeryi ne byivaiut.
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Old April 18th, 2008, 09:57 AM   #7
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Sorry tried to help, got abuse
nice....

But any news on the luma shift?

-Kaspar
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Old April 19th, 2008, 12:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaspar Kallas View Post
Sorry tried to help, got abuse
nice....

But any news on the luma shift?

-Kaspar
not abuse at all. So we have REAL situation here. Did you REALLY edit with FCP WITHOUT second monitor and with CHOPPY image on main timeline preview window? I'm afraid that NO.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 05:06 AM   #9
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Hi

In fcp if you keep the preview window smaller than 50% have at least core 2 duo 2,4 GHZ 2GB ram then you get realtime playback, true on one screen.

"Magnus" was edited in PP 2.0 that had many major bugs and there are still reasons why I would not use PP till this day.

I work on one screen on principle - it gives me much improved ergonomics and faster review of edits, I use newest dell 30", I just wish the problem with luma shift would go away and I could use bigger than 60% of the original image to fill larger area of the 2560x1600.

Also waiting on matureness of Speedgarde to handle metadata and decent render times.

I am working on two full length doc's that have been shot with SI2K, one in cineform and the other in ProRez Proxies because there is a whole lot of effects to plan and realtime fx are essential, for planning stage.
I do feel your pain with Cineform as the current raw implementation is far from final for MAC and even PP has some issues (playback lag). But then again when I compare images that have been shot with red and SI2K - I prefer the latter. In the end of they it is not the tools but people who make a great film or not. Just some tools are more helpful than others

So please somebody from cineform - I have been expecting some sort of answer (via mail or this board) about the FCP luma shift for more than two weeks now, just let me know is it a bug or not / how to fix it?

-Kaspar
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Old April 20th, 2008, 10:44 AM   #10
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Hi Kasper,

Sorry about the delay, NAB has been killer for support, causing a back log where the answer is not straight forward. Also the Mac decoder is in the middle of several large changes, I'll check into yet another gamma shift (remember these are FCP/QT bugs we have to work around, in some case providing the wrong gamma so FCP previews correctly.)
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Old April 20th, 2008, 11:49 AM   #11
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Hi

I think the best way would be able to use the ProRez timeline (or any other FCP "native") to get best performance out FCP.
So maybe it would be possible to set the decode quality to even lower so FCP could handle it one of the native timelines, so then there would be only one specific shift to deal with (at least until FCP rendering and preview get a re-haul)? And this would also enable realtime fx engine.

It is my 2C
Hopefully the nab version hits public beta soon...
-Kaspar
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Old April 20th, 2008, 12:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaspar Kallas View Post
Hi

In fcp if you keep the preview window smaller than 50% have at least core 2 duo 2,4 GHZ 2GB ram then you get realtime playback, true on one screen.

"Magnus" was edited in PP 2.0 that had many major bugs and there are still reasons why I would not use PP till this day.

I work on one screen on principle - it gives me much improved ergonomics and faster review of edits, I use newest dell 30", I just wish the problem with luma shift would go away and I could use bigger than 60% of the original image to fill larger area of the 2560x1600.

Also waiting on matureness of Speedgarde to handle metadata and decent render times.

I am working on two full length doc's that have been shot with SI2K, one in cineform and the other in ProRez Proxies because there is a whole lot of effects to plan and realtime fx are essential, for planning stage.
I do feel your pain with Cineform as the current raw implementation is far from final for MAC and even PP has some issues (playback lag). But then again when I compare images that have been shot with red and SI2K - I prefer the latter. In the end of they it is not the tools but people who make a great film or not. Just some tools are more helpful than others

So please somebody from cineform - I have been expecting some sort of answer (via mail or this board) about the FCP luma shift for more than two weeks now, just let me know is it a bug or not / how to fix it?

-Kaspar
You missed my info that the camera Cineform codec is version 3.0. With newer versions there is no (at least) problem with choppy image. Very important: I receive choppy image with 2 XEon's quadcore 3 GHz and 8 GB RAM ATI 3870 and image is below 50 % . Unfortunatelly I have 70 hours of raw material shoot with this codec version (3.0) so I need editor than can edit it as is - choppy and on main monitor only (without preview). Anyway I expect Cineform to resolve it sometime , but we have hard deadline and I'm not sure that issues will be resolved till our deadline. (I must edit it BEFORE this deadline).
What I'm fully agree with is that right now SI-2K is better than RED. I had see test printed to film (from both cameras) so SI-2K is better than RED, but headpains with Cineform codec... :-(
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Old April 20th, 2008, 01:23 PM   #13
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Hi

If you'd like you could send me privately a small clip and I could test, I really do not keep count raw version so I might have missed it.

Also if you need two screens and workflow right now (to access metadata etc) then use winxp and premiere, considering what the soft license costs you will be able to finish in time, if needed then use automatic duck to pull it back to FCP? That is actually what I did with magnus, but I had to debeyer first because back then no raw support what so ever on mac. You can use the hardware that you have purchased. I dont know if adobe is leasing, but you can us it free for 30 days - maybe it is all you need?

PP is not that bad, it seems that v3 is more stable (with v2 we had problems if the project file was bigger than 50MB it would start crashing at randoom)

So it all depends how bad do you need it, also a possibility is to offline (to ProZ 8bit low is about 2x realtime, or DVCPro HD) so you could finish editorial and link back to original and go out on what ever software you need.

Hope this starts to solve your problems...
-Kaspar
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Old April 21st, 2008, 03:52 AM   #14
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One of my clients complained that they can't run 720p60 CineForm MOVs within FCP on a secondary preview monitor in realtime. I've only been able to test CineForm within the smaller preview window within FCP and it seems to run fine.

However, most editors I know really require that secondary monitor so I'll be genuinely interested in the further development of the codec within FCP.
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Old April 26th, 2008, 12:10 PM   #15
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Any timeframe for the new update / and will it support editing on uncompressed or proZ timeline for mac?

Thank You
-Kaspar
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