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Old May 7th, 2008, 08:44 PM   #1
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timeline doesn't specify output resolution

The subject line is actually from a comment by David Newman about editing in HDV and outputting in SD. I'm using HDV footage in SD projects. Currently, not using Cineform Aspect, I capture and edit a SD track from my FX-1 via the DV downconvert. The SD editing is real time responsive, and I use it also to make in/out points for HDV clips which I then re-capture in HDV format and insert as 'close-ups'.

David suggested to another forum member that you could capture and edit in HDV, blowing up the 'close-up' clips up to 200%. Then outputing to SD you wouldn't experience the softness that blowing up larger than 100% usually produces, referencing the fact that 'the timeline does not specify your output resolution'.

I tested the idea and it didn't seem to work, the blown up HDV clips in SD export were, indeed, soft. Anybod, especially David Newman know what I'm doing wrong?
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Old May 7th, 2008, 09:54 PM   #2
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It only works if you use an HD timeline. If you use an SD timeline you need to turn of scale to timeline, then it should work -- although I never use SD timelines.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 12:40 AM   #3
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David, thanks for your response. My test was to capture a HDV tape in a PPro (v2) HDV project using the Cineform (Aspect) 1080i preset. I edited the clips on the timeline as HDV. I took sections of the clip at 100%, copied them and 'blew them up to between 130% and 200% in the motion box of the effect controls panel. I then exported the movie, using Cineform AVI in the dialogue box. (On your site, in the Knowledge Base, under exporting to DVD, it says to use 'Cineform HD ' setting, their was no such option in my dialogue box.) I tried to settings, one to use the 16x9>4x3 crop, DV out and the other to go manually, using 720x480 and 0.9.

I then reimported the movies into a PPRo DV project, a quick render and I viewed them via firewire/camcorder out to a good Sony SD monitor. The '200%' clips looked soft, like I had blown them up 200%.

I had tried this experiment using just PPro w/o Cineform and it didn't work either.

I figured that when using your codec, given what you had said before, your software would realize with the SD export, that it would read the 720 pixels it needed from the original 1440 pixel footage to create the picture. Even though I 'blew up' the HDV clips to 200%, Cineform figured out that in an SD export, I simply needed the pixels that were already there in the frame without actually doubling them up. But that doesn't seem to work.

So, am I understanding you right? Am I doing the process wrong to get this soft footage? I'm shooting live theater performances with one camera, and this technique of getting a wide shot and CU with the same footage is vital to my workflow. I hope I am doing something wrong and that the Cineform software can help me here.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 09:27 AM   #4
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It could be you are try to do it with interlace footaged, in an interlaced project, which doesn't have much headroom for any scaling.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 11:51 AM   #5
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Yes, I am using 1080i from a Sony FX-1. You answered someone else in a post which I reference below and I guess you were referring to progressive footage only?

((Lloyd Coleman: Here are examples of the scaling and cropping I am doing:

-Shoot a football play fairly wide in HD, no zooming - on an SD timeline (not in the camera) zoom in on the quarterback throwing the ball, then follow the ball to the receiver and then zoom out to full frame.

-Use an unmanned camera in the back of the church for a wedding. While editing, zoom in on the bride and groom, pan across the congregation, follow the flower girl up the aisle, etc.

These require me to use HD material on an SD timeline so I can move around on the larger frame size.

Newman: Works in HD just well (in fact much better.) You just need to get you head around timeline does not specify you output resolution, you get to choose that during the export movie process.))

I'm in a similar situation to LLoyd, i.e. using the same HDV footage for close-up, pan & scan shots as well as the original, wider frame. Are you saying that 720p footage would work this way but 1080i would not?. Would there be any advantage to using Aspect in this scenario, other than compositing or color adjusting fidelity?

BTW, your speedy and thoughtful responses really rock! But I've got 10 different theatrical shows, (15-20 different performances) to tape and edit in 3 months, mostly labor of love, the final output as SD DVD's; a limited budget and I need all the help in improving workflow I can get.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 12:29 PM   #6
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Just as a follow-up to my response to your other thread, you might actually try reversing your procedure: try using the HDV for the wide shots and SD, if you must, for the close ups. The wide shots will have more detail that needs capturing while close-ups usually benefit from a bit of softness.

But honestly I'd do the whole thing in HDV and not capture twice.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 12:40 PM   #7
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My advice, de-interlace your HDV on capture (shoot with 1/60th shutter), edit progressively, and master to progressive formated DVDs. De-interlaced 1080i only get around 720p, so 720p over 480p only gets you 150% push-in capability without the image soften.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 01:32 PM   #8
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David, again thanks for your input. Will try.

On another tack, would there be anyway to invoke your HDV accelerator within a PPro SD project, for just the HDV content? Or does PPro restrict the software to one 'player?' per project at a time? How do Edius and NewTek seem to get by with real time playback of multiple formats? By now I'm probably driving you nuts, so you don't have to anwer...but multi-format editing does seem to be a very cool option.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 01:36 PM   #9
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We mix multiple format. i.e. 720p will play in 1080p times, 2K and 3K and 4K all mix great, etc. The issue with SD is 4:3 ratios. SD 16x9 will play in HD timelines. If the format is in CineForm format, otherwise only some formats will work -- however no idea which, banned SD from my workflow years ago.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 01:58 PM   #10
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How do 'deinterlace on capture'? Using Sony FX-1.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 02:15 PM   #11
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Using HDLink, it has a deinterlace option.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 02:44 PM   #12
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Must have the settings wrong. In HD Link I used:
Destination File format-AVI
Cineform Encodr Options Quality-High
Frame Format-Progressive
Frame Rate Change-No change & Maintain Audio Pitch checked
Precompression Filters etc- I checked De-interlace 1080i and DV sources
Resize Video-NTSC 16X9
Split file Changes - checked

I imported the converted clip into PPro 2, the project set at 720x480 60p. The clips were redlined when placed into the sequence and the picture looked ok in the program monitor when still or scrubbed, but was a green blob on regular playback. Where am I going wrong?
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Old May 8th, 2008, 03:56 PM   #13
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Don't convert to SD, and you output will be 30p not 60p.
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