Why is Cineform Stuff So Outrageously Expensive? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > CineForm Software Showcase

CineForm Software Showcase
Cross platform digital intermediates for independent filmmakers.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 10th, 2005, 05:00 PM   #1
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bristol, CT (Home of EPSN)
Posts: 1,182
Why is Cineform Stuff So Outrageously Expensive?

$500 for a codec? C'mon, isn't that ridiculous? And to make matters worse, they give their product a different name for each NLE package so that if you change editing software and they whack you again.

I can't wait for the day - and it will happen very soon - when Premiere, Vegas and FCP can handle HDV well without getting gouged $500 for a damn codec. Of course, you can get it bundled with Premiere Pro, for only $799. Sure, PP, is worth only $300, but Cineform's converter is worth nearly twice as much.

Imagine if Microsoft charged extra to import various kinds of data file into Word...at least bundle your stuff as one, otherwise I look forward to the day when Cineform's products become extinct.

I know many other people in the industry who feel the same way. I also thought it was comical that Cineform didn't have a booth at NAB because, ' it was too expensive."
__________________
Paul Cascio
www.pictureframingschool.com
Paul Cascio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2005, 05:31 PM   #2
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 26
cost vs. value

Paul, what PP *costs* and what it is *worth* are two different things, as is usually the case with just about everything ;)

in the case of Cineform's codecs, cost vs. value has to be determined by who needs and uses them...Adobe is now including HDV support in PP for "free" (or rather as a free upgrade to 1.5 owners), so if the performance of Adobe's version of the codec is sufficient for you (1 or 2 tracks of HDV video with maybe one or two effects on a modern machine), then you should rejoice!

if it is not, in the past you would have had to buy some sort of DSP hardware (ie. a PCI card) that could further accelerate your codec, plugin, or application...what Cineform is doing today, is nothing other than providing you with highly optimized processing routines that can make your workflow multitudes faster and/or more powerful...whether they accomplish this in hardware or software should have no negative bearings on the cost vs. value equation...paying $500 to achive 4-5 stream realtime HD performance with multiple layers of effects is a small price to pay for those that need it.

as a matter of fact, doing it in software is an *additional* value to me, because it means it is easily transportable (no PCI cards to de-install and re-install when i am moving from one machine to the next), and - even more importantly - it is scalable, meaning that as my machine gets faster, the software-codec gets faster...if you've been in the industry for a long time, you know that there's probably more than one or two old and massive DSP cards flying around in the drawers of your studio (i remember one card i had collecting dust since the mid-90's until recently, that accelerated my Photoshop Gaussian Blur filter ;)
i wish it had been a software-solution that would surely - in today's computers - blur a 12MP image before i even released the mouse button.

i could go on, but i think you can see why *i* am not finding Cineform's business model to be laughable...they have created an amazingly efficient, scalable, visually beautiful and excellently supported product that would have seemed like magic and worth *any* price only 5 years ago.

hope you're enjoying your HDV experiments, though...isn't it amazing how far we've come?!

best,
till
Till Krueger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2005, 06:24 PM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,727
It's probably market forces that dictates the price - just like everything else on the planet. If people want the features of Cineform's codec, and they can only get them from that codec, then, well they have no choice. Good business for Cineform and you can't really blame them.

BTW: I think Vegas 6 does now have Cineform's Intermediate codec built in. So you can capture HDV and edit all nice and fast. I don't have an HDV camera so I can't say.

Aaron
__________________
My Website
Meat Free Media
Aaron Koolen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2005, 11:12 PM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Clermont, FL
Posts: 1,520
It is more than just a codec. The codec is part of Premiere Pro 1.5.1

It is the acceleration and fancy realtime effects that are worth the money. Worth every penny. If we had to do without Cineform in the market, we would still be waiting for Vegas and Premiere Pro to have a solution. Although you can buy the MainConcept solution for less money, you know?

But Aspect HD 3.0 is far superior to the other solutions, and if it costs money then you have to either justify it, or do without.

As some people say, there is no gravity, the earth sucks.

Remember what it cost befor Premiere Pro 1.5.1 was announced? $999

So you are getting a HUGE discount now.
__________________
Steven Gotz
http://www.stevengotz.com
Steven Gotz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2005, 11:18 PM   #5
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
In addition to market forces we never sell just codec, that business model is not of interest to us. Yes we have a cool codec but we never sell it alone, because alone it does very little. We basically give it way with Adobe and Sony licenses -- i.e. you get at no additional cost with PPro 1.5.1 and Vegas 6. In Aspect HD only about 20% of the code base is codec related -- that means 80% of the code is for acceleration and effect pipelines. In Prospect HD even more code is not codec related. This why our products sell well; there a lot under the hood.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2005, 11:48 PM   #6
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Thanks guys for you nice comments.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 08:58 AM   #7
MPS Digital Studios
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
Posts: 8,531
Paul,

It sounds to me like you're starting a flame war here. If you want to criticize, that's one thing, but you're going for a full-on attack. The great thing about our message board is the community and professional atmosphere. I would like to refer you to our FAQ:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/faq.php

Thanks,

Heath
__________________
My Final Cut Pro X blog
Heath McKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 10:09 AM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
Paul, to me the value of Aspect HD for PPro 151 is in the following:

1. I can edit HDV in real time on my *existing* hardware, today.

2. I get huge savings in hard drive storage requirements, as AHD avi's are only about twice the size of the original m2t's (at Medium Size seting), while image quality afforded by AHD codec is still OK. And I'm picky on quality.

So as always, you can get any 2 of speed, price, quality. AHD gives you speed and quality.

If you want price and quality, simply transcode your m2t's into uncompressed AVI's; then make a low-res offline copy of them; edit offline footage; then replace it with the high-res AVI's. You'll lose a lot of time and HDD storage, but will win on price - no AHD required.

I also think that AHD is a bit overpriced at $500; I'd figure $300 is more reasonable for what it does. But, since AHD is the only game in Wintel town, they can sell it at whatever the market allows.

Bottom line: I bought Aspect HD at $500 for a commercial project, and it was 100% worth it for me.

As for you, "pick any 2 of Speed, Price, or Quality" rule always applies - so it's your decision.
Alex Raskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 10:15 AM   #9
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Alex,

Your comments are completely valid, although I think Heath was commenting on the last two paragraphs of the original post. So thank you Heath.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 11:26 AM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida
Posts: 2,614
First, Paul is indeed expressing his opinion, but legitimate is not the word for it. Legitimate means right, truthfull, logical. Opinion means views, thoughts, or feelings. Those are indeed his,(views, thoughts, or feelings) maybe just not legitimate.

Everyone would like more "affordable" software, but not "cheap" software. There is a difference.

CineForms price did come down quite a bit! This, I assume, was due in part to them licensing their produce to Adobe and others which then cuts into their own market. Adobe and most other editing platforms can be used on most all computers and camera systems etc. But with Aspect HD, and Prospect HD you have an additional requirement----an HD camera and or source. This severely limits their market. You don't have a camera, you probably have no need for their product. That probably cuts their market from say an example of 100% down to maybe .01% of those in the total DV market, perhaps less.

In addition, how many other companies are so quick to give assistance to those who own or use their products and or are interested in buying them. It was just over 6 hours from the time you posted your (question? or opinion?) until you had several responses, including one from the CTO of CineForm. They are always here to help.

At least you got a good responce, as to the difference between this software and just another codec. Hope that brings your blood pressure down.

Best of luck to you Paul. Also thanks to David and the others at CineForm.

Mike
Mike Teutsch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 11:35 AM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 547
I've got to admit, as a non-professional HDV owner (let's just say I'm the target audience for the Sony FX1), I'm very tempted to buy Aspect HD, but find that it's price is prohibitive, and as it stands is missing a few features I'm interested in (i.e, built in reverse pull-down on capture for CF24 stuff).

When my copy of Premiere Pro 1.5.1 arrives next week, I'll give it a shot to see how well my computer handles Cineform editing without Aspect HD. If I go so far as to download the Aspect HD trial and find it as significant an improvement as it promises - we'll see. IMO it's worth about $300 to me.

-Steve
Steven White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 11:39 AM   #12
MPS Digital Studios
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
Posts: 8,531
Alex,

If you re-read his opinion, which is valid, you'll notice the wording is flame-inducing. I've been on these boards for over a year-and-a-half, and I've seen what starts flames. He has every right to voice his opinion, but we hope it will be more professional, and less of a provocation. His post is very flame-starting.

Also, we have yet to see a reply from Paul on the matter.

heath
__________________
My Final Cut Pro X blog
Heath McKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 12:07 PM   #13
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven White
I'm very tempted to buy Aspect HD, but find that it's price is prohibitive, and as it stands is missing a few features I'm interested in (i.e, built in reverse pull-down on capture for CF24 stuff).
The next release includes reverse-pulldown of CF24 and CF25 to 24p conversion.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 12:12 PM   #14
MPS Digital Studios
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
Posts: 8,531
David,

That's IMPRESSIVE! Will it get rid of the "staccato" look from movement?

heath
__________________
My Final Cut Pro X blog
Heath McKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2005, 01:03 PM   #15
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bristol, CT (Home of EPSN)
Posts: 1,182
Wow

First, let me say to Heath that I in no way want to start a flame war. I rasied a valid issue regarding what I perceived as am overpriced product. Disagree with me, but please do not imply that my words were in any way personal. However, after re-reading my original post, perhaps I was a bit too fervant in my complaint. No offense was intended. The reason I hadn't responded yet, was because it's been less than 24-hours since my original post.

To his credit, David did not seem to taake them personally and responded objectively to my issues regarding the price/value of his product. I also realize that David regularly posts here and contributes a lot to this forum.

When I buy a car, tv, whatever, I don;t feel the accessories should be more expensive than the main item. When it comes to software, I don't think plugins, codecs, and accesorial products should cost more than the main program. The fact that the price of Aspect HD dropped $500, IMO. bolsters my arguement. When it's available for $199, a price that I consider reasonable, I will buy it.

For some, $500 may be a fair price based on the amount of use it will receive. For me, it's too much.

Thanks to David and all who responded. Keith, I respect your work here, but pleae keep the safety on your fire extinguisher a bit longer. There were no flames, no fire, and no damsels in distress who needed rescuing.
__________________
Paul Cascio
www.pictureframingschool.com
Paul Cascio is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > CineForm Software Showcase

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:12 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network