avoiding motion artefacts at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > CineForm Software Showcase

CineForm Software Showcase
Cross platform digital intermediates for independent filmmakers.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 5th, 2005, 10:13 AM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
avoiding motion artefacts

When using Windows Media 9 1080i 50i or 25p anamorphic codecs, exported via Adobe Media encoder, I get highly visible interlace artefacts on all movements (hens teeth). The same happens when I export Cineform HDV avis. None of these show on the preview monitor prior to encoding. Is this due to watching interlaced footage on a progressive monitor (hp 2335)? If so, how does the Cineform intermediate codec manage to avoid displaying hens teeth, when displaying rapid movemements on the same monitor? Playback from the timeline gives a nice even blur on moving objects.

Is there a 1080i PAL codec available that will allow me to view my edit in Media Player, at near HDV quality, without motion artefacts, on any fast PC (2 Ghz plus)?

Thanks
Martin Sercombe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2005, 12:34 PM   #2
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Yes, interlaced playback on a progressive computer monitor will show interlacing artifacts. In you intend to output for progressive displays you should select de-interlace in the export options. Aspect HD avoids this interlacing issue on the timeline by de-interlacing as part of the preview playback. In the playback options, turn off "de-interlace" will scrubbing and you will see that the interlace information is in the file(s).
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2005, 01:08 PM   #3
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
deinterlacing

Thanks David, that has clarified things for me! I have deinterlaced an exported file without problems using the export movie dialogue. I can't find a deinterlace command for any of the Windows Media 9 codec presets, when using Adobe Media encoder. Is there another route via Windows Media Encoder, for example? I have had a quick look at it, and none of the presets it offers fit the bill.
Martin Sercombe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2005, 03:44 PM   #4
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
When using the AME, select the "Pre Encoding Tasks" check box in the Summary section, that will allow you to add a de-interlacer.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2005, 11:21 AM   #5
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
deinterlacing options

thanks again. I have tried none (progressive mode), upper field first and lower field first options. Only the last of these produces clean results, the other two still show hens teeth, though their impact is now less noticeable. Why is this?
Martin Sercombe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2005, 01:12 PM   #6
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
De-interlacing with a "Field Order" of progressive doesn't really make much sense (i.e. it doesn't de-interlace.) However Upper or Lower choice should work equally well, that control just determines which field will be used of the frame reconstruction. I don't know way you see a significant difference between upper and lower options.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2005, 10:22 AM   #7
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
deinterlacing

yes, now I have looked more closely at my test files, I see that both options give similar results. I rendered out a 5 min file in Windows Media 9 1080i, and it looks quite horrible in places, with pixellation and unreal skin tones, where it has too many changes to contend with.

I tried your tip, and used 1280x720p24 instead. It seems a better compromise for overall pic quality, and more clients will be able to watch it smoothly.
Martin Sercombe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2005, 04:22 PM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Katoomba NSW Australia
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sercombe
yes, now I have looked more closely at my test files, I see that both options give similar results. I rendered out a 5 min file in Windows Media 9 1080i, and it looks quite horrible in places, with pixellation and unreal skin tones, where it has too many changes to contend with.

I tried your tip, and used 1280x720p24 instead. It seems a better compromise for overall pic quality, and more clients will be able to watch it smoothly.
Have you looked at the bitrate options when encoding your WMV9 file?

The WMV9 encode template options (can't remember the Premiere one's cause I've been using Vegas instead...) are based around far lower bitrates than will give good (not so artifacted) results - and employ variable bitrates; that at their minimum, are just way too low.

With WMV9 HD - as with MPEG2 for DVD - you should keep bitrates up and use two pass encoding for the best results.
Steve Crisdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2005, 03:49 AM   #9
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
I guessed this is the problem, as the max variable bit rate I am getting from the presets offered by Media Encoder hover around 1.7 meg/sec. I can't see a way, within adobe media encoder to manually select my bit rate. Am I missing something, or should I be using Windows Media Encoder or another software package, and import a hires avi to it for recompressing? Thanks.
Martin Sercombe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2005, 05:43 AM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Katoomba NSW Australia
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sercombe
I guessed this is the problem, as the max variable bit rate I am getting from the presets offered by Media Encoder hover around 1.7 meg/sec. I can't see a way, within adobe media encoder to manually select my bit rate. Am I missing something, or should I be using Windows Media Encoder or another software package, and import a hires avi to it for recompressing? Thanks.
1.7?... Yikes!! and that's the max? DVD works out at around the 9.8Mbit mark, and that's for 720x480 for NTSC and 720x576 for PAL: i.e. if you're creating a 1280x720 WMV, you'll need at least around the same.

As the resolution of the video goes up - so too should the bitrate if you wish to retain as close to the originals quality.

If you want to make WMV9 HD clips to write to DVD for use in a media player like the Avel Linkplayer 2, you'll want to get as close to the native HD/HDV originals' bitrate as you can. The proviso is - of course; trying to keep file size down!

Anyway; 1.7 is very low bitrate for retaining any quality in a WMV9 that you intend to show the advantage of shooting as HD!

If you can't find the options to adjust within Media Encoder, it may be worth your while to download WMV9 encoder from the dreaded Microsloth... Come to think of it... I seem to recall that without downloading the WMV9 encoder from Big M, Premiere didn't have the same WMV9 encoding options. Once installed - WMV encode options in all my video editing appz got access to the WMV9 HD options. Wouldn't hurt to get it and load it anyway - it does have a 'stand-alone' version of the encoder for encoding from AVI.

Hope you get it sorted - WMV9 HD files seem to be a good option for distribution - and with the impending X-Box 360, PS3, Zensonic Z5000, HD media players portals or whatever you want to call them... with drives that'll play WMV9 DVDs; it may become even more popular.
Steve Crisdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2005, 09:36 AM   #11
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
I already have WME installed, and I have played with all the codec options which then appear in Adobe ME, but still don't get the choice to increase bit rates. I have also tried exporting Cineform HDV and HD Export avis. (What is the difference between these codecs btw?). Both the Cineform codecs give a very clean pic, but the sound is out of sync and drops out about 5 secs before the end of the clip. Both Cineform avis play smoothly in Media Player 9 on my 3GHz machine (apart from the sound issue). When I try to import either of these clips to WME to recompress them, the software crashes.

So I still havn't figured how to get a good quality HDV demo avi off the system, which will be playable on a laptop or desktop with a 2 GHz + processor. Can anyone give me a step by step proven production route? Many thanks!
Martin Sercombe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2005, 11:19 AM   #12
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Martin,
playback of HD is tricker on slower systems (3GHz put you on the edge.) We have a little tool that speeds playback of CineForm AVIs on these systems. Your audio is going out of sync due to system load.

http://www.cineform.com/downloads/PlaybackControls.zip

Unzip and double click on "AcceratedPlay.reg".
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2005, 08:45 AM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Neenah, WI
Posts: 547
Also, Martin...you may want to try Windows Media Encoder (Free Download from Microsoft). The settings are incredibly flexible and I've had great results encoding with it.

The drawback is that you have to export a clip of the entire show. Potentially big file.
Tim Kolb is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > CineForm Software Showcase

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:31 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network