24p/60i -> 25p/50i? Or 25p/50i -> 24p/60i? at DVinfo.net

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Old November 7th, 2005, 02:42 AM   #1
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[HD] 1080/24p (60i) -> 1080/25p (50i)? Or 1080/25p (50i) -> 1080/24p (60i)?

As all we know, there will be two versions of the same Panasonic HVX200 cam: 24p/60i & 25p/50i.

In my case, my needs are two (fifty/fifty):
(A) Big screen
&
(B) DVD release [more SD PAL than NTSC (but also) & future formats HD-DVD or Blue-ray and so on for PAL & NTSC - why not?]

Because a 24p/60i* shooting in PAL regions will be more:
a) film-out suitable
b) NTSC suitable
c) besides 2.5x - versus 2x - slow(er) motion (150%)

*a 24p/60i purchase only will be possible if also PAL conversion goes OK.

I ask if is it possible and reliable a Cineform post-production solution for:
[1] DVCPRO HD 1080/24p (60i) -> HD 1080/25p (50i)?
[2] And for DVCPRO HD 1080/25p (50i) -> HD 1080/24p (60i)?

What will it be better option?

Will it be resolution losses or other consequences/(after-)effects?

Last edited by Emanuel Costa; November 7th, 2005 at 07:55 AM.
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Old November 7th, 2005, 11:08 AM   #2
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Both 25p to 24p and 24p to 25p conversions are simple and are performed all the time in post for exports. So you can shoot either. However, in DVCPRO-HD there is a resolution and bit-rate advantage to shooting 25p, as that will use all 100Mb/s for active picture data at 1440x1080. The 24p mode is 60i, will use all the 100Mb/s but only 80Mb/s is used for the 24p signal at 1280x1080.

Not announcing ANYTHING.

A CineForm workflow could take the 25p 1440x1080 and convert it to 24p as part of a seamless import process. So I would recommend shooting 25.
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Old November 7th, 2005, 08:10 PM   #3
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Thanks David! You are very useful. I've been following your Cineform website since a couple of months ago.

Though I don't know yet your product I hope that your product will be an add value for our work.

This issue has been full discuss in other forum as you can see for instance @ http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread...8&page=4&pp=10*
where your product is mentioned.

According all the people that I spoke, the question is:
a 25p -> 24p for film-out comparatively a 24p to film-out, it will not be the same (as you can follow in other example):
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=22545 Post#4

[I] Is it so or not?

[II] Will it be any resolution losses or other (after-)effects @ 25 -> 24p for film-out purposes or will it be non-noticeable @ big screen?
('cause about small screen is a little bit different)

It's very important this enlightenment [I & II]! I'd like to know your opinion, David.

Thanks in advance!

*as far as "propaganda quote" is concerned that's a previous crossposting debate http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread...8&page=2&pp=10 (Post#14) about the new info medium from Panasonic (defperception.com) as you probably know

Last edited by Emanuel Costa; November 7th, 2005 at 11:46 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2005, 11:19 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel Costa
The question is all the people that I spoke said to me that a 25p -> 24p comparatively a 24p to film-out it will not be the same; with resolution losses or other (after-)effects?
Then people you spoke to don't realize that is common place. 25p and 24p are used interchangeable on thousands of projects a years. There are ZERO resolution losses and nor any other effects. The 4% speed change is not perceivable, I know this from experience, growing up in a PAL country, then watching the same material in NTSC. I never thought the image was slower (however, the resolution loss was very noticeable i.e PAL vs NTSC :) .) Some European films are even shot at 25Hz to simplify lighting on 50Hz power systems. It is not possible to tell whether a project was shot at 24 and sped up to 25 or at 25 slowed 24.

If you go with 25p on the HVX you get a 12.5% gain in resolution, a 25% gain in effective bit-rate, making a 4% loss in play speed seem very insignificant (which it is.) :)
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Old November 8th, 2005, 12:27 AM   #5
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Thanks!

As maybe you can see, I've been editing my last post while you answered my questions. OK! Perhaps after your advice following your experience and a real demo that we must test it, we are going to wait for the HVX PAL. If you say that we only have advantages...even for the big screen! (@ HVX shooting/DVCPRO HD footage) - despite the opinions/links mentioned above...

1st

In your website - http://cineform.com/products/AspectHDPPro.htm - when someone says «I was knocked out that I could choose to transform to true 24p during capture - or could import 25p and then export and transform to 24p. This means I can create two solutions in post - one to transfer to film, and one dedicated for broadcast.» [Peter Lancett (XlitherFilms), Filmmaker in the UK] it means two versions/possibilities (24p & 25p) at same time for the same work?

2nd

Other question, probably for another thread but BTW, is:

We know that a) uncompressed HD signal is better than any HD compression; b) your system is 10 bits - I read the Quality Analysis comparative with DVCPRO HD, as well, several reviews about your codec - and I know theoretically some potencial of your product.

@ online level (of course, and not only off-line) with the Cineform products, do we have a non-noticeable compressed HD signal comparatively to uncompressed HD for the big screen considering that as post-production process will not need FX unless basic effects like fades, transitions, etc., colour correction & grading? By other words, with your codec and for this particular sort of work is it unnecessary an uncompressed HD quality @ post-production for the big screen?

And without any other needs (in terms of post-production)?

Last edited by Emanuel Costa; November 8th, 2005 at 06:52 AM.
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Old November 8th, 2005, 10:33 AM   #6
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1) Not really. You have the choice of working in 23.976p, 24p or 25p, but this choice is independent to your shoot mode, which is the really cool thing. Once you have your master (it which every frame rate) these too can be tweaked to produce different output rates. This is why 24p and 25p modes are really universal mastering format (as compared to 30p, 50p, 60p or anything interlaced.)

2) Yes CineForm Intermediate can be used for big screen project and it has been used on a few already -- most notably was the last April's release of Dust to Glory (the DVD is now available if you want to check it out.) CineForm was the first to do a compressed DI (digital intermediate) for a film out project (and I think we are still the only ones who have done this.) We are also in post-production on a film-scan to CineForm project (Prospect 2K), and pre-production on an effects heavy HD project, direct to CineForm aquistion (bypassing camera compression) and completing the post in Prospect HD. So for today's proven DI workflows, there is uncompressed and there is CineForm.
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Old November 8th, 2005, 08:13 PM   #7
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To resume the conversation from this thread, sorry I can't be of any help because I don't have an answer for you. That's because so little is known about the HVX200. In fact, Panasonic has probably lost me as a potential HVX customer because they've gone silent for months...hype, hype, hype, then no new information on the CCD block or lens on which guys like us can base major purchase decisions. I'll have to leave it to technical experts like Mr. Newman, who at least can offer considered opinions on this as-yet unreleased camera. For all we know, if maximum resolution is your primary concern, maybe this won't turn out to be the best camera for you once the next crop of HD cameras is actually available?
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Old November 13th, 2005, 12:55 AM   #8
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Thanks anyway Pete for your attention about our needs and this HVX purchase concern that I posted!

Last edited by Emanuel Costa; November 13th, 2005 at 03:02 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2005, 01:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
So for today's proven DI workflows, there is uncompressed and there is CineForm.
Good! So, in your website @ http://www.cineform.com/products/FilmmakerWorkflow.htm, it (is) said: «As a figure of merit, 35mm film output from a CineForm Intermediate file will cost in the neighborhood of $10,000 including film stock.»

For a feature, I suppose! But regarding* a feature movie with a final runtime (length) of 90 or 120 minutes ?** Or anything in between ? So, what does it mean that one "figure of merit" ?

And without (any) other costs (plus your products package) ?


* including film stock

** It's not the same thing (there is, the same cost)!

Last edited by Emanuel Costa; November 13th, 2005 at 03:59 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2005, 02:38 AM   #10
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[concerning the previous post] an enlightenment of each important detail will be always essential for any independent producer before any investment add and, in this moment, we develop a feature movie project that we'd like to go to film-out (35mm), as well. So, thanks in advance!
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Old November 13th, 2005, 11:06 AM   #11
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The film out is not a CineForm expense, so we can't quote you an exact price. Yes of course the lenght of the feature will impact pricing, and I'm pretty sure the $10k estimate is based on a 90 minute feature to be done at Pixel Harvest (www.pixelharvest.com.) You should research the film out pricing as there are many different options, we where just pointing out one low cost option.
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Old November 13th, 2005, 03:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
The film out is not a CineForm expense, so we can't quote you an exact price. Yes of course the lenght of the feature will impact pricing, and I'm pretty sure the $10k estimate is based on a 90 minute feature to be done at Pixel Harvest (www.pixelharvest.com.) You should research the film out pricing as there are many different options, we where just pointing out one low cost option.
Thanks for your answer!

Emanuel
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