Why Do I Need This Again?... at DVinfo.net

Joel Corral · February 27th, 2006, 09:24 PM

ok i have been sold on aspect hd for a few months but with Ppro 2.0 why would i need this anymore? i get real-time native editing with at least 2 layers (pretty much all i need) and i can export using 4:2:2 profile...and less conversion to intermediate...

so why do i need aspect hd anymore?

joel

my specs.
Pentium D 2.8 (dual core)
3 gigs pc25300 DDRII RAM
ATI X700 256MB
750 gigs on 5 HDD @ 7200 RPM

Chris Barcellos · February 27th, 2006, 10:05 PM

I agree with you Joel. Pro 2.0 does a pretty good job in native edit... If there is ever a need for Cineform edits, its what you use for intermediate in 1.51, so that option is available if you upgraded from that.

David Newman · February 28th, 2006, 12:28 AM

For simple projects on a fast PC PPro 2.0 will be OK. Aspect HD does much more for complex projects, or projects on laptops, or projects where quality is more of a concern particular for compositing and effects work. So much has already been said on the matter on this forum and elsewhere. Remember CineForm is aiming to serve above the commodity NLE tools market, by adding features targetting indie filmmakers and other creative niche production markets. These are the reasons people purchase Aspect HD (and for that matter Prospect HD), higher performance, higher quality, greater creative freedom.

David Taylor · February 28th, 2006, 01:14 AM

Also, Aspect HD supports all the modes for all cameras, including 24p, 24F, CineFrame, etc. None of these modes are supported by Premiere Pro, and those modes are not likely to be supported by Premiere Pro anytime soon.

Joel Corral · February 28th, 2006, 01:24 AM

hmm... tough one though... i cant justify the upgrade to 4.0 now....

and Ppro does support the HDR-FX1 formats cf24, 29.97, cf30...
right now thats all i care about... i am sure in the future the Panasonic, JVC, Canon modes will be supported...

Joel

Marty Baggen · February 28th, 2006, 07:27 AM

I had Premiere 2.0 installed for a few weeks, and yes indeed, you can wrestle your way around a simple project. However, let's define "simple".

Without Aspect, I was unable to scrub effectively via my APVe display card (Matrox).

In addition to that, even for the most basic project, your footage is going to require color correction and level adjustments for maintaining legal limits and matching shot-to-shot. I wouldn't dream of attempting that task without Aspect.

There is something to be said about having a responsive interface and preview. I came from a hardware based system that was rock solid. Now I have nearly that same feel with Premiere/Aspect editing HDV.... not so without Aspect. On its own, Premiere caused a subconcious "delay" factor in how I interfaced with a project.... it's a subjective thing, very much a feel, and it will vary somewhat with your computer hardware, but with Aspect, I feel more "at one" with the edits.

After Effects 6.5 Professional benefits tremendously as well.

My advice..... if you are decided that you don't want to invest in Aspect, DON'T try the trial version, because you will find it frustrating to suddenly be without it when it expires.

And Mr Newman.... step in here if I am too optimistic, I understand that for those of us that need to interact with studios and shooters on P2, there is a solution on its way?

David Newman · February 28th, 2006, 09:48 AM

Marty,
yes to all of that. :)

Joel,
Premiere Pro 2 doesn't directly support either CF24 or CF30 as it treats them both as 60i. If you shoot is a progressive mode you should want to edit in a progressive mode as that allows you to create the best looking progressive DVDs. Aspect HD extracts the 24p signal from CF24 and allows for progressive mode editing for all the CineFrame modes (CF24, CF25 and CF30.) CineFrame modes are explained here : http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm

Joel Corral · February 28th, 2006, 10:13 AM

David and all,

NTSC video is all interlaced anyways, right? These modes only "fake" the look of 24p - 30p but really it’s all interlaced at the end of the day correct? And besides you can create a custom template and ad the 2:3:3:2 (or what ever the pull down is) for CF24 or create a 30p timeline and with no fields and uncheck blend fields... looks good tried it... Still hate CF24 but CF30 looks just as good... my whole concern way back last year when I first made the change to HDV was am I going to be able to edit natively with a beefy system… now I can even multicam edit which is what I do weekly in RT very well with no delays and less rendering and I can export via AME using 4:2:2 profile very nice… color correction I admit does lag but I’ll correct after the project is cut and ready to render… obviously these results will vary from project to project but right the projects I have in front of me are doing fine….
Like I said I was sole on Aspect in Ppro1.5.1 but it looks as though adobe is really stepping it up… and am please with the workflow and results I am getting now…

Joel

David Newman · February 28th, 2006, 10:43 AM

NTSC might be presented as interlaced, yet progressive scan DVD give you plenty of good reasons to edit in progressive, particularly from a HD source. Progressive content, progressively edited and displayed, can achieve superior image results. Premiere Pro doesn't give you that support, as all 1080 HDV editing modes are interlaced (i.e. no support for CineFrame.) Note: AME exporting to 4:2:2 does not perform the up converting that Aspect HD uses, so it doesn't doesn't benefit you (you still have 4:2:0 -- see the quality analysis here http://www.cineform.com/technology/H...sis051011.htm). Yes, native premiere may work, but there are compromises, we just offer a upgrade solution for those who can benefit.

Joel Corral · February 28th, 2006, 10:57 AM

hmm...I’ll have to download the 4.0 demo and see what if i notice quality difference...you do put a good argument about the 4:2:2…so if I export to AME and select 4:2:2 profile I am not getting a up sample 4:2:2 m2t file? Then what am I getting? I can clearly see a improvement in color between the same two files when compared side by side…

i think i can still achieve progressive video from just turning fields off and using a 30p timeline, and deselect frame blend?

Joel

David Newman · February 28th, 2006, 11:25 AM

My PC is working hard on something else so I can't do the test at this moment, yet I believe the Adobe HDV 1080 modes have disabled the progressive timeline option, so no you can't do what you suggest.

As for the 4:2:2 export option under the AME, that doesn't change the way the source is decoded, which is where the 4:2:0 issues are. Having 4:2:2 at the source is more import than on export, as so many of the export standards are commonly 4:2:0 (DVD, WMV9, broadcast HD, etc.)

Joel Corral · February 28th, 2006, 11:42 AM

Your right but... if you select custom settings tab and select desktop editing mode all the options are available to create a project that you want...

Joel

David Newman · February 28th, 2006, 11:58 AM

Yes that should work, although as it isn't the HDV editing mode I not sure of the limitations, might be totally fine and work for CF30 (although not CF24.)

Joel Corral · February 28th, 2006, 12:04 PM

why not CF24? do the same in custom project settings and create a 23.976 timeline and perform the pull down, no?

joel

David Newman · February 28th, 2006, 12:05 PM

try it, see if it works correctly. Is it fast for multiple stream playback?

February 27th, 2006, 09:24 PM	#1
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	Why Do I Need This Again?... ok i have been sold on aspect hd for a few months but with Ppro 2.0 why would i need this anymore? i get real-time native editing with at least 2 layers (pretty much all i need) and i can export using 4:2:2 profile...and less conversion to intermediate... so why do i need aspect hd anymore? joel my specs. Pentium D 2.8 (dual core) 3 gigs pc25300 DDRII RAM ATI X700 256MB 750 gigs on 5 HDD @ 7200 RPM

February 27th, 2006, 10:05 PM	#2
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I agree with you Joel. Pro 2.0 does a pretty good job in native edit... If there is ever a need for Cineform edits, its what you use for intermediate in 1.51, so that option is available if you upgraded from that. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

February 28th, 2006, 12:28 AM	#3
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	For simple projects on a fast PC PPro 2.0 will be OK. Aspect HD does much more for complex projects, or projects on laptops, or projects where quality is more of a concern particular for compositing and effects work. So much has already been said on the matter on this forum and elsewhere. Remember CineForm is aiming to serve above the commodity NLE tools market, by adding features targetting indie filmmakers and other creative niche production markets. These are the reasons people purchase Aspect HD (and for that matter Prospect HD), higher performance, higher quality, greater creative freedom. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 28th, 2006, 09:48 AM	#7
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Marty, yes to all of that. :) Joel, Premiere Pro 2 doesn't directly support either CF24 or CF30 as it treats them both as 60i. If you shoot is a progressive mode you should want to edit in a progressive mode as that allows you to create the best looking progressive DVDs. Aspect HD extracts the 24p signal from CF24 and allows for progressive mode editing for all the CineFrame modes (CF24, CF25 and CF30.) CineFrame modes are explained here : http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 28th, 2006, 10:43 AM	#9
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	NTSC might be presented as interlaced, yet progressive scan DVD give you plenty of good reasons to edit in progressive, particularly from a HD source. Progressive content, progressively edited and displayed, can achieve superior image results. Premiere Pro doesn't give you that support, as all 1080 HDV editing modes are interlaced (i.e. no support for CineFrame.) Note: AME exporting to 4:2:2 does not perform the up converting that Aspect HD uses, so it doesn't doesn't benefit you (you still have 4:2:0 -- see the quality analysis here http://www.cineform.com/technology/H...sis051011.htm). Yes, native premiere may work, but there are compromises, we just offer a upgrade solution for those who can benefit. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 28th, 2006, 01:14 AM	#4
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Also, Aspect HD supports all the modes for all cameras, including 24p, 24F, CineFrame, etc. None of these modes are supported by Premiere Pro, and those modes are not likely to be supported by Premiere Pro anytime soon.

February 28th, 2006, 01:24 AM	#5
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	hmm... tough one though... i cant justify the upgrade to 4.0 now.... and Ppro does support the HDR-FX1 formats cf24, 29.97, cf30... right now thats all i care about... i am sure in the future the Panasonic, JVC, Canon modes will be supported... Joel

February 28th, 2006, 07:27 AM	#6
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	I had Premiere 2.0 installed for a few weeks, and yes indeed, you can wrestle your way around a simple project. However, let's define "simple". Without Aspect, I was unable to scrub effectively via my APVe display card (Matrox). In addition to that, even for the most basic project, your footage is going to require color correction and level adjustments for maintaining legal limits and matching shot-to-shot. I wouldn't dream of attempting that task without Aspect. There is something to be said about having a responsive interface and preview. I came from a hardware based system that was rock solid. Now I have nearly that same feel with Premiere/Aspect editing HDV.... not so without Aspect. On its own, Premiere caused a subconcious "delay" factor in how I interfaced with a project.... it's a subjective thing, very much a feel, and it will vary somewhat with your computer hardware, but with Aspect, I feel more "at one" with the edits. After Effects 6.5 Professional benefits tremendously as well. My advice..... if you are decided that you don't want to invest in Aspect, DON'T try the trial version, because you will find it frustrating to suddenly be without it when it expires. And Mr Newman.... step in here if I am too optimistic, I understand that for those of us that need to interact with studios and shooters on P2, there is a solution on its way?

February 28th, 2006, 10:13 AM	#8
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	David and all, NTSC video is all interlaced anyways, right? These modes only "fake" the look of 24p - 30p but really it’s all interlaced at the end of the day correct? And besides you can create a custom template and ad the 2:3:3:2 (or what ever the pull down is) for CF24 or create a 30p timeline and with no fields and uncheck blend fields... looks good tried it... Still hate CF24 but CF30 looks just as good... my whole concern way back last year when I first made the change to HDV was am I going to be able to edit natively with a beefy system… now I can even multicam edit which is what I do weekly in RT very well with no delays and less rendering and I can export via AME using 4:2:2 profile very nice… color correction I admit does lag but I’ll correct after the project is cut and ready to render… obviously these results will vary from project to project but right the projects I have in front of me are doing fine…. Like I said I was sole on Aspect in Ppro1.5.1 but it looks as though adobe is really stepping it up… and am please with the workflow and results I am getting now… Joel

February 28th, 2006, 10:57 AM	#10
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	hmm...I’ll have to download the 4.0 demo and see what if i notice quality difference...you do put a good argument about the 4:2:2…so if I export to AME and select 4:2:2 profile I am not getting a up sample 4:2:2 m2t file? Then what am I getting? I can clearly see a improvement in color between the same two files when compared side by side… i think i can still achieve progressive video from just turning fields off and using a 30p timeline, and deselect frame blend? Joel

February 28th, 2006, 11:25 AM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	My PC is working hard on something else so I can't do the test at this moment, yet I believe the Adobe HDV 1080 modes have disabled the progressive timeline option, so no you can't do what you suggest. As for the 4:2:2 export option under the AME, that doesn't change the way the source is decoded, which is where the 4:2:0 issues are. Having 4:2:2 at the source is more import than on export, as so many of the export standards are commonly 4:2:0 (DVD, WMV9, broadcast HD, etc.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 28th, 2006, 11:42 AM	#12
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	Your right but... if you select custom settings tab and select desktop editing mode all the options are available to create a project that you want... Joel

February 28th, 2006, 11:58 AM	#13
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes that should work, although as it isn't the HDV editing mode I not sure of the limitations, might be totally fine and work for CF30 (although not CF24.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 28th, 2006, 12:04 PM	#14
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	why not CF24? do the same in custom project settings and create a 23.976 timeline and perform the pull down, no? joel

February 28th, 2006, 12:05 PM	#15
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	try it, see if it works correctly. Is it fast for multiple stream playback? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman