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Old June 12th, 2006, 10:13 PM   #1
Disjecta
 
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Aspect HD woes going back to tape

I posted this over at the Cineform site but I figured I'd post it here also in case any users have encountered the same problem. Sorry for the long windedness of this post but there's no simple way of explaining the problem:

Here's what happens:

Import Canon XLH1 footage via HD Link with remove 3-2 pulldown selected. Check the m2t file in VLC player and Media Player Classic and it looks great.

Import into Premiere via the Cineform project setting for the Canon. Do a little color correction. Render on the timeline, looks great. Next, export again to Cineform m2t file.

Open HD Link again and export footage back to the Canon XLH1.

Simple, right? Should work fine.

When I look at what's going back into the camera, the footage is strobing in a jumpy way like there is some issue with pulldown. I've seen this before where the fields were not interpreted properly and it messes up the motion completely.

What settings should I be using for the m2t to export back to the camera correctly?

I'm sure this problem can be duplicated at your end.

Tim responded to this post by suggesting I capture footage via HDLink with the pulldown option deselected. I followed his advice and here's my response:

I tried what you suggested and the same thing is still happening. It's only if I choose 1080i 29.97 export setting for m2t does the motion look normal. Why is this?

(Premiere still crashes at the end of my m2t export every time).

Are we not dealing with 23.976 files? When I captured as you suggested, with pulldown unselected, I had After Affects interpret the file and it said 29.97. I captured the same file with pulldown selected and After Effects also interpreted the file as 29.97

When I let Premiere Pro 2.0 interpret the file, it reads it at 23.976. Aaargh, this is frustrating and confusing. The files play perfectly on the Premiere timeline so something is going awry in the export process.

No matter how I capture the footage in HDLink (with pulldown unchecked or checked) it seems like HDLink's export to the camera maybe messing up because when I play the created m2t files using VLC or Media Player Classic, the motion looks fine.

Also, I have never been able to get the "scene detect" option to work while capturing using HDLink. Does it have something to do with that not supporting the Canon?

I have the absolute latest version of Aspect HD and I always uninstall the old version before installing the new.

Further tests:

I captured footage via HDLink and then took that same file and exported it back to the camera via HDLink and it played fine.

I then took the two files (one captured in HDLink with pulldown deselected and one captured in HDLink with pulldown selected), imported them into Premiere and rendered each of them as separate m2t files using the Cineform M2T 23.976p/60i option in Premiere Pro 2.0 and sent both of them to tape using Vegas 6.0d and the same stuttering effect happened.

My conclusion is this:

The problem is with the Premiere export selection. Cineform M2T 23.976p/60i export setting does not work with the XLH1 footage even though it really should in my mind. Correct me if I'm wrong Tim. Should I be using the Cineform M2T 1080i 29.97 setting for export instead?

It would really help if you could post a complete workflow for me (including all settings) from capture to output back to tape.

I have Premiere 1.5.1 installed as well as Premiere Pro 2.0 and the latest (build 60) version of Aspect HD.

The reason I am outputting back to the camera right now is because it's the only means I have to watch it on an HD display. Given that there is no settled upon standard for HD DVDs yet, I have no other choice with my current set up. My motherboard does not have a PCI-X slot and I can't afford to upgrade it right now so I don't have the option to watch output on an HD display while editing.

Oh, and one more thing to mention while I have your attention:

Anytime I capture m2t files using HDLink, the first two frames are always, without exception, corrupted. They show huge macro blocks. What causes this?
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Old June 12th, 2006, 10:46 PM   #2
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Too many questions for one forum post. Is there a chance you didn't shoot on 24F? As you definitely must NOT remove pulldown as the Canon's 24F mode encodes 24p such that no pull-down removal is needed. If you get that wrong, everything from then on will be screwed up. If you want me to check, please upload a small M2T that you captured from the camera and I will verify that you source is correct.

I did just verify if you have 24F content is it automatically converted at 24p (without having to use interpret footage or pull-down removal.) Please verify this before moving on to your next question.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 10:56 PM   #3
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Thanks David. I realized my post is convoluted.

There is absolutely no doubt that my source footage is 24f as I exclusively shoot in that mode.

In a nutshell, HDLink captures perfectly and it works perfectly on the Premiere timeline.

What export setting should I be using in Premiere Pro 2.0 to create a new m2t file?

Let's start with that.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 11:10 PM   #4
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No, I'm don't convinced as your long post said you had to select pull-down removal. Is that true or not? Everything will go wrong from there. Please upload a short M2T from the camera. I also checked AE and my files came in a 23.976 as they should.

Anyway, why you you exporting back to the Canon camera? That is not a good idea (HDV is not a delivery format.) Canon doesn't have an HDV deck so it is not a good archive format either. The "Cineform M2T 23.976p/60i" mode will inject pulldown to create a compatible HD2 stream that work with the Sony HDV deck, and it should work like a 60i stream with pulldown on the Canon camera.
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Old June 13th, 2006, 12:05 AM   #5
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Here you go David. Recorded in 24f mode. Captured from the XLH1 using HDLink with pulldown unchecked.

http://www.realm.cc/upload/disjecta/test.0001.m2t

As I already mentioned, I am simply going back to tape right now because it's the only way I can view my work on an HDTV. I realize it is inferior to the original and that multiple passes of compression is going to introduce problems but not the kind I am experiencing with what looks to me like misinterpreted fields.
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Old June 13th, 2006, 12:27 AM   #6
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OK, the file is fine, and the conversion is fine. So when you follow up with Tim, point out this was cleared up. So only question now is why does the camera mess up with the generated M2T -- note: HDLink is not at fault is it simply copies the M2T data out the FireWire port, so it is not changing the media. It could be that the Canon can't take the HD2 bit-stream, but I can't imagine why. You might want to get a Matrox Parhelia AVPe (if you motherboard allows, it is PCI-e not X) or even a networked DVD playback with HD support (like the IOData AvelLink Player, they are cheap and a great playback device.)
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Old June 13th, 2006, 12:29 AM   #7
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David, thanks so much for your time. I'll take a look at your suggestions.
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Old June 15th, 2006, 12:18 AM   #8
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XL H1 Help

Steven,

Since You have more experience I really need help, if you can please dedicate couple minutes to help me out here.
I have a project to do, want to shoot HD 24f and deliver the DVD in SD 16:9 aspect Ratio.

Fot this project do I have to get Aspect HD? because when I tried to downconvert to SD with built in downcovertor in XL h1, it captures in 4:3 aspect ratio for some reson, then what I need to do, purchase aspect hd, then import as m2t files, and then what? I'm sorry, maybe I dont have much knowledge about the frame rates, it really gets me confusing, but the bottom line is that I want to record in 24f HD and then deliver the final project movie in SD DVD 16:9 aspect ratio, could you please give a workflow, how should I get this done.

Thank you very much in advance,

And I'm sory for taking your time on this.


Nerses
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Old June 15th, 2006, 12:25 AM   #9
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You show ask your question to everyone on this forum. Aspect HD will certainly support 24F HD from the camera than downconvert to SD 16x9 DVD.
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Old June 15th, 2006, 12:26 AM   #10
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Nerses,

First off, I wouldn't bother downconverting using the camera. By the way, the camera does convert correctly to 16:9, it's just stretched out in the viewfinder with no letterbox. It will look fine on a 16:9 timeline.

I would use Cineform AspectHD within Premiere Pro to capture and edit the HD footage and then export the finished timeline to 16:9 DVD, which will down convert it. That way, you will have a master edit in HD.
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Old June 15th, 2006, 12:28 AM   #11
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Another Question

Steven I just tried to test your posted file, 24F, m2t file.
When I import to Premiere Pro 1.5 and lpay it frame by frame, it has 2 hold frames then 2 normal frames then 2 and 2 ....

I tried to remove pull down in after effects (3:2) but it same thing.
what am I doing wrong?
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Old June 15th, 2006, 12:34 AM   #12
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Steve

By the way, I forgot to tell you how amazed people are when I show them your film, journey to spring.
I have on my computer since I live in a ranch and no nice places around here, when they see that footage, people dont beleive that you sue canon XL h1 to record the film.
Of course I dont excpect to get the same results in one day, I need to practice, but I'm spending almost 20 hours and plus at front of my computer, and willing to learn, and really want to be good at what I'm doing, but I do really get confused, I read in Canon Manual that it records 60i on MiniDV, then I dont really understand, well if that recorded in 24f but on acctual minidv been recorded 60 i, then in what timeline I should work, 24 or 60?
thats when I get confused, then also a big confusion for me, ok lets say I got everything done, then if I want Timewarner to broadcast that commercial , should I export in what frame rate? I want to make the commercial to have movie feeling, look like a film, but when I record in 24f , I noticed if I pan the camera little bit fast, it has like jump frames, I dont understand, maybe something wrong with my camera, I never noticed in journey to spring video any flickering, or any jump frames, it was perfect, even you were panning the camera,
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Old June 15th, 2006, 09:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerses Papoyan
Steven I just tried to test your posted file, 24F, m2t file.
When I import to Premiere Pro 1.5 and lpay it frame by frame, it has 2 hold frames then 2 normal frames then 2 and 2 ....

I tried to remove pull down in after effects (3:2) but it same thing.
what am I doing wrong?
Nerses

If you load that M2T file into HDLink (a tool that comes with Aspect HD) and convert it to an AVI, the resulting file is 24p. This is way Aspect HD is popular, it solve many of this camera compatibility issue.
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