David I need help, see this file on our ftp at DVinfo.net

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Old July 7th, 2006, 04:55 PM   #1
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David I need help, see this file on our ftp

Hey, seems we are getting strange renders on all exports from the timeline with CineForm plugins, color correctors and fades etc...please see this link:


http://www.dv3productions.com/cinefo...of%20Color.avi

thanks for the help

-Obin
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Old July 7th, 2006, 05:45 PM   #2
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Obin you need to goin through support as clear that file it missed up, something isn't correct with your install.
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Old July 8th, 2006, 07:39 AM   #3
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I submitted a ticket to support. i have tried to export in all codecs and formats and it shows up the same error on all cineform rendered areas of the timeline with cineform plugins on the clips.

ideas?


do you have a new build that I could try?
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Old July 8th, 2006, 10:00 AM   #4
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There is a new build in beta, I don't want to say that is the fix as no one else has reported your error, nor have I seen it before. That is way I aways want things like this to go through the trouble ticket system, it the only bug vs system issue can be tracked down. As it is the weekend, email me you current build number and I will see if you can use an update.
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Old July 10th, 2006, 01:37 PM   #5
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While we are working on that issue David, I have a new question.

If you take a look at this:

www.dv3productions.com/cineform/Sequence 02.avi


And

www.dv3productions.com/cineform/Sequence 01.avi


How can we export without Banding? I thought that CineForm was visualy lossless...am I doing somthing wrong?

using EXPORT MOVIE and setting to CineformHD export HIGH or AVI and using the cineform 2.5 compressor also set to HIGH
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Old July 10th, 2006, 01:57 PM   #6
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Yes you are doing something wrong, you are viewing in 8-bit. Load both files into AE 16-bit mode you will not see any banding. So you haven't encoding any banding, the gradients are smooth. Now there an issue with 8-bit presentation that we are planning on improving, but there isn't a bug here.
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Old July 10th, 2006, 06:32 PM   #7
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Ok so how to get media OUT of post then? If it's website video TV viewing on DVD or a big screen...we need smooth 8bit output..

Also what is the ghosting I am seeing in the frames? ideas?

http://www.dv3productions.com/cinefo...20ghosting.psd
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Old July 10th, 2006, 06:38 PM   #8
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Banding w/ Cineform and After Effects

While I don't know Obin's exact setup and software versions, this banding issue is similar to what I saw on a project a while ago, so I thought that it was worth reporting as it might help others to prevent future problems. David, by all means please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

AspectHD uses 8 bit YUV processing, ProspectHD uses 10 bit YUV processing.
AfterEffectsStd uses 8 bit RGB processing, AfterEffectsPro uses 16 bit RGB processing.

Going from ProspectHD avi through AEpro and back to a ProspectHD avi goes from
10 bit YUV -> 16 bit RGB -> 10 bit YUV.
However, there is barely any loss since the performance is limited by the 10 bit YUV which is darn good.

However, going from AspectHD avi through AEstd back to AspectHD avi goes from
8 bit YUV -> 8 bit RGB -> 8 bit YUV.
On smooth, dark gradients, I occasionally noticed that this transformation would result in additional color quantization that would appear as increased banding (even if I did nothing in AE).

In Obin's files, you can check that, across the gradient, occasionally the RGB values step twice as much, which creates the more noticeable band edges. This is very similar to what I saw in my files.

To see my specific issue, you can check out the green wall in the mirrored bedroom scene in my DVC5 entry, "Love Bites". You can see some banding in the green wall which was introduced I went through AE to create the effect.
http://www.wrgardner.com/film/LoveBites

Private emails with David Newman helped to diagnose and confirm the effect I described above.

So, if I might summarize my advice, it would be:

For those folks with AspectHD and After Effects standard, each trip through AE can introduce additional color quantization, so minimize your passes through AE. And this is particularly noticeable on smooth gradients like the sky, flat walls, gradients like in Obin's file, etc.

Also, I believe that VirtualDub also uses 8 bit RGB, so the same effect can occur when using VirtualDub to process AspectHD avis. I'd expect the same for any other external program that operates in the 8 bit RGB space.

Finally, it would be my guess that ProspectHD through AEstd or any 8 bit RGB program would result in substantial color degradation, since you're going from 10 bit YUV through 8 bit RGB, and throwing away 2 bits of color + introducing the additional quantization in the YUV->RGB->YUV steps.

Cheers,
Bill
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Old July 10th, 2006, 07:08 PM   #9
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Bill,
it is not completely related as Obin is using Prosect HD and doesn't have banding in the file.

Obin,
Please stick to one subject at a time AND go through support. I don't have time to remotely solve everything you do each day -- we have support people for that. Plus I trying to get a new PHD version out.

If you want the best 8-bit RGB output, you need to dither 10bit down to 8bit, not truncate. We are planing this as a codec feature for playback but in the meantime you can do it externally. Unfortunately PPro has no 16-bit noise filter so you have do it in AE Pro. Place your 10-bit CFHD export into a 16-bit composition, then add 0.4% noise, this 1 least-significant bit of 8-bit dithering, then export to your 8-bit RGB target format (e.g. uncompressed). You will get the cleanest gradients possible (before your DVD encoding messes with it which it will.) The dithering will give you effectively more than the 256 levels of 8-bit. This is a fairly well know trick for deep to 8-bit pixel manipulation.
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Old July 10th, 2006, 09:06 PM   #10
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David,

A few questions:

1. Are you sure Obin is using AEpro? If he uses AEstd, he'll have color truncation issues with the 8 bit RGB in AE, yes? Would this be consistent with the behavior we're seeing in his files? Or am I confused? Or both? :)

2. Did you see anything incorrect with my analysis for AspectHD users?

Thanks much,
Bill
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Old July 10th, 2006, 09:32 PM   #11
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This is why we have tech support, as the full picture is not clear for these few posts, so no one is helped. Bill, No you can tell what is actually happening without Prospect HD, as this it is not a problem just a workaround needed for Obin. In theory you are correct but it is not related to the issue here.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 09:41 AM   #12
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I still see some banding in AE PRO, but it is less, What about the ghosting artifacts? at this point I am bothered more by them then anything

And yes I am working in AE pro with the cineform loader
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Old July 11th, 2006, 09:42 AM   #13
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Ghosting can be seen here in this AE printscreen

http://www.dv3productions.com/cinefo...20ghosting.psd

Ghosting is not in the uncompressed file
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Old July 11th, 2006, 10:17 AM   #14
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Either send me the data privately, or go through tech support, I find your use of the forum distrating an ineffecient as there is no way I can draw any conclusions other than you setup is weird (which is just silly.) Please give us meaningful data through support (perferrably) otherwise we can't help you. That mean video sequences, before and after data, version numbers, machine specs, all the stuff support will ask for. And if you post it here I will do my best NOT to answer. :) I never want to see a post titled "David, I need help ...", a forum is for community help. Don't try bypass channels, as we do have other customers, and everyone's project is important.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 05:19 PM   #15
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I am sorry David, I thought you hung out in this area to help. And as I am a working professional and working on professional projects with deadlines etc I thought this would be a good place to get answers to questions and help fast.

Sorry I was mistaken.

I am here for helpfull answers and workarounds to issues that I may uncover, good or bad.
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