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Old August 18th, 2006, 12:13 AM   #1
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Problems with Movement in Video

I have noticed that whenever the camera moves rather quickly or any fast motion, my Cineform intermediates fall apart. Example: a shot looking across a bay with Sea Gulls flying across the image. There is a doubled image of each seagull as they fly by. If the camera moves (pans) or a large moving image crosses nearby I see "interlaced lines" across the moving part of the image only.There is no problem with the HC-1 hooked up directly to a HD monitor. Image is sharp, even with lots of motion.

I use the Aspect HDV settings for my capture in PPro and HDlink in Vegas - both have these problems. I did notice with HDLINK that I kept the original CFHD Mpeg files. When I play these they have the same problem-but again the Tape played thru caamcorder and HD output does NOT have any issues. My preference, capture, and project setting are all 1080x1440 29.97fps interlaced - upper field first. DVD output is 720x480, 29.97fps interlaced-lowere field first. I've played with all of these to no avail.

Today I tried capturing and making a quick DVD with the same footage in Pinnacle Studio 10.5. The image is PERFECT, no doubled image of the seagulls, no "interlaced like lines" across moving objects. So clearly, my camera, firewire cable, video card, memory, etc. are all setup and capable.

It is disconcerting that Pinn Studio - a less then $100 program seems to give superior results. What could be the problem? Is my install somehow corupted? Should I uninstall Cineform and reinstall?
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Old August 18th, 2006, 12:23 AM   #2
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The problem is not CineForm compression as we don't compress motion like you suggest. The fact that the MPEG files what we converted from has the same issue, you are most likely look at a computer presentation artifact. Interlaced material can look less than idea on a progressive computer display. Consumer tools like Studio, my aim to give good PC presentation, but that will not get you the best HD results -- Studio is likely showing only one field (use Bob display) to turn interlaced into progressive. If you primary concern is PC presentation, either shoot in a progressive mode like CF30 or deinterlace when rendering your output.
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Old August 18th, 2006, 12:41 AM   #3
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In response to above, my clip properties are:
Type: AVI
File Size 432.4mb
Image Size 1440x1080
Pixel Depth 24
Frame Rate 29.97
Average Data Rate 11.7 MB/second
Piexel Aspect Ratio 1.333

CineForm Visually Perfect File Details
Contains 1 Video Track(s) and 1 Audio Track(s)
Video Track 1
Frame Rate 29.97
Frame Size 1440x1080
Uncompressed Video Format is 8-bit YUV422

Project Settings
General- Editing Mode Cineform HD RT
Time Base 29.97
Frame Size 1440 Horiz 1080 vertical
Pixel Aspect Ratio HD Anamorphic 1080 (1.333)
Fields Upper Field first
Playback Settings - the 3 middle Cineform playback settings are checked

Capture - CineForm HDV capture - capture miodule installed

Video Rendering - Compressor - CineForm HD Codec, Millions+ colors


I left out audio coding, and other items that were not image related. Does anyone see anything wrong in these settings? I am using a Sony HC-1 - camcorder at standard settings, no cineframe, no change from standard shutter speed etc.

Attached are 3 frames with a Single Seagull flying across the bottom of the image.
Does anybody have any idea what's causing this? How to fix? I have been racking my brains on this for quite awhile. I didn't include the Pinnacle Studio images, but there is a perfectly sharp Single Seagull in the same frames captured in Pinn Studio. Thanks - PK
Attached Thumbnails
Problems with Movement in Video-seagull-02.jpg   Problems with Movement in Video-seagull-03.jpg  

Problems with Movement in Video-seagull-06.jpg  
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Old August 18th, 2006, 01:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
The problem is not CineForm compression as we don't compress motion like you suggest. The fact that the MPEG files what we converted from has the same issue, you are most likely look at a computer presentation artifact. Interlaced material can look less than idea on a progressive computer display. Consumer tools like Studio, my aim to give good PC presentation, but that will not get you the best HD results -- Studio is likely showing only one field (use Bob display) to turn interlaced into progressive. If you primary concern is PC presentation, either shoot in a progressive mode like CF30 or deinterlace when rendering your output.
Thanks David. Until a BlueRay/HDDVD solution becomes reasonable, my primary goal is DVD output at this time. These problems are present on my computer monitor while editing, on the resulting DVD played on an old interlaced CRT TV, and the DVD played thru a progressive DVD player w component output to a Sony G-90 front Projection system. Just for the heck of it, I tried the Pinn Studio today-1st time I'd tried it since version 9 (non-HDV version). Pinn Studio offers you the choice of outputing DVD as progressive (I was surprised). I had been using interlaced with Vegas and PPro, so I left it as interlaced-to keep the playing field level. I love commercial progressive DVD's; However, I tried converting SD DV to progressive and found the results were less then desireable if there is any camera movement or rapid motion. I definitely want/need features that Pinn Studio does not have-it ws just an experiment :) Thanks for you time, and have a good night. Sincerely - PK

Last edited by Paul Kepen; August 18th, 2006 at 04:25 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2006, 09:37 AM   #5
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Somehow you are mixing the fields on export. This is not normal behavior. Try turning off "de-interlace while scrubbing". Another customer reported problems on export using that option (although is doesn't do it on my home version there could be a bug there.)
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Old August 19th, 2006, 03:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
Somehow you are mixing the fields on export. This is not normal behavior. Try turning off "de-interlace while scrubbing". Another customer reported problems on export using that option (although is doesn't do it on my home version there could be a bug there.)
Thanks for the idea, but that did not help either, only added interlaced scan lines to the preview while scrubbing-not while viewing playback in the PPro monitor window. I can live witht the doubled images and so forth in editing, but I would prefer not to have them in the final output :) I agree it seems to be a field order problem, but how can they be getting mixxed up? I never had a field order problem with regular DV. I listed all of my project/clip settings earlier in this thread - do you see anything wrong with them?

What are the DVD options I should use? I've used the NTSC widescreen DVD template in PPro, and customized by uping the bit rate, etc. I notice it defaults to lowere field first. HDV is upper field first - should I switch to upper field first for DVD output ?

When I output to DVD the results are inferior (more jaggies) with PPro 1.5.1 versus Vegas+DVD Architect. The Adobe programs don't seem to offer as much customization as the Sony programs. However, I'm just using the export function of PPro- cause its faster for experimentation. Is the Quality any different with Encore?

Do most people convert to 24P with Cineform before editing? Or just go with interlaced, or de-interlace with DV fim maker, majic bullet, etc.?

Thanks David, have a good weekend
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Old August 19th, 2006, 03:50 PM   #7
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"Video Rendering - Compressor - CineForm HD Codec, Millions+ colors"

Should say "CineForm HD Export" as the file type, not use the "Microsoft AVI" option. You may be use the old Premiere licensed components.

Export you 1080i movie using "CineForm HD Export" set you DVD size and pixel aspect, and low field first. Once you have you SD CineForm master use that in Encore to create your DVD.
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Old August 20th, 2006, 12:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
"Video Rendering - Compressor - CineForm HD Codec, Millions+ colors"

Should say "CineForm HD Export" as the file type, not use the "Microsoft AVI" option. You may be use the old Premiere licensed components.

Export you 1080i movie using "CineForm HD Export" set you DVD size and pixel aspect, and low field first. Once you have you SD CineForm master use that in Encore to create your DVD.
David, up until now, I have just been trying to use the "Export to DVD" function of PPro 1.5.1. without using Encore. I was using the "NTSC DV 16x9" template.

When I goto "Export Movie," the General section default is - File Type: "CineForm HD Export." Then I click Video it lists Compressor: "CineForm HD Codec," Color Depth: "Millions+ of Colors" Frame Size: "1440h x 1080v," Frame Rate: "29.97," Pixel Aspect Ratio: "HD Anamorphic 1080 (1.333)." I believe this is what you said they should be.

I have now made the AVI per above, and it plays perfectly in Media player - sharp, clean, and no double images.

Question: When and how do I set it up to DVD resolution 720x480? (Encore will not import as an asset. It states resolution must be 720x480)

Thank you again for all the time and effort you so generously provide.

Last edited by Paul Kepen; August 20th, 2006 at 01:54 PM.
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Old August 20th, 2006, 02:31 PM   #9
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Within Export movie simply set the new size and field order to 720x480 low-field first. The resulting AVI will import into Encore DVD.
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Old August 21st, 2006, 10:42 AM   #10
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Thank you again David - I guess that seems obvious, but I didn't want to screw things up without being sure. Yesterday, I imported the full HDV res avi into Sony DVD Architect with no problems, and it did the down res on its own. It took 58 minutes to make 6 min. clip into a disk - that would equate to 2+1/2 days for an hour video (on a AMD 4200 X2 w 2 gig ram system). The disk looks very good overall-FAR better then anything else so far. However, those flying seagulls, still are double imaged when watching the video, but if you hit pause, there is no double image. I thought maybe this was just part of the HC-1 rolling shutter issue, but playing the tape directly to HD component input, there is not a double image appearance of the seagul in either playback or pause.

Were getting close, its greatly improved, but it still seems there must be some sort of field order error. I don't know, but since HDV is all upper field, and DVD is lower field, I would think this would cause this problem. Is there a work around, or is this "just the way it is"? Do I need a de-interlacer step somewhere in the work flow?
Thanks Again-PK
(really can't thank you enough for all your time and help)
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Old August 21st, 2006, 12:50 PM   #11
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Paul,

If you not seeing a double when paused, it mean the fields are correctly encoded as separate time intervals. If the motion looks smooth then the fields are in the correct order. Sounds like the disk is fine. To test use a regular DVD to a CRT TV -- HD LCD/Plasma display can do odd things to present an interlaced image as progressive.
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Old August 21st, 2006, 01:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
Paul,

If you not seeing a double when paused, it mean the fields are correctly encoded as separate time intervals. If the motion looks smooth then the fields are in the correct order. Sounds like the disk is fine. To test use a regular DVD to a CRT TV -- HD LCD/Plasma display can do odd things to present an interlaced image as progressive.
Thanks David for the quick reply.
I did preview the disk on a Sony G-90 -3 CRT front projection system. The DVD player was a Sony S9000ES. I've viewed many of my reguar DV projects edited and put on DVD with this system. Tennis, Water, Snow skiing, etc. with lots of motion and we never had a double image effect. I will try previewing on an old 32" tv tonight. Like I said, overall it looked very good, sharp, clean, good color, contrast, etc. My only concern is with fast motion/action.
Any ideas, or suggestions would be most appreciated. Have a Great Day and Thanks - PK
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Old August 21st, 2006, 01:19 PM   #13
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Paul,

For a double image we you either must have the field blended (which you said they are not -- "if you hit pause, there is no double image") or forward/reverse motion to indicate the fields are in the wrong order. If you have neither of these, the double is an artifact of the display device.
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Old August 24th, 2006, 01:29 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by David Newman
Paul,

For a double image we you either must have the field blended (which you said they are not -- "if you hit pause, there is no double image") or forward/reverse motion to indicate the fields are in the wrong order. If you have neither of these, the double is an artifact of the display device.
Sorry to be a pain, but I do not have either of those. Experimenting I noticed that if I'm in X2 or X4 speed, I see not 2 but 3-4 sets of wings. on a single Seagull!! It is also noticeable on the outlines of other moving things; ie. The grill on a car moving toward the camera, a white t-shirt as a person walks by-not totaly double, just a bright ghost on the edge. When you puase the play of the video it disapears. Curiously, I have shots where I moved the camera a lot (I was trying to make a quick adjustment and didn't bother stopping filming), but that did not seem to cause a problem, only when the subject was moving either horizontally across, or vertically across the frame. Viewing, pausing, etc the direct HDV output show no problems-just super clear footage. Also, the pinnacle studio encoded disk has no problems with this. Studio's DVD is not field dropped cause the resolution is too comparable. The Pinnacle output does seem to have more "mosquito noise."
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Old August 24th, 2006, 09:38 AM   #15
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There is something you are doing wrong, but your description is not leading to any conclusions. You can be mixing frame rate with blending, you could be mixing format, somehow, yet the "When you puase the play of the video it disapears" say that the video is fine. Video is nothing more that a series of frames, so you must be messing with the candence, which may give the illusion of a double image. You going to have to send us an example clip. Use "yousendit.com" and email yourself. Copy that link and email me it through DVInfo.net (click on my username.)
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