Cineform and RED at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > CineForm Software Showcase

CineForm Software Showcase
Cross platform digital intermediates for independent filmmakers.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 26th, 2006, 11:37 AM   #1
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
Cineform and RED

I read that RED camera will have a bundled software for converting their 4K data stream into something "visually lossless" to be edited on regular PC.

David Newman... do you guys provide RED people with Cineform compression codec for editing? Or does RED use some different codec?

It'd be nice if RED employed Cineform AHD, since my system is already set for it.
Alex Raskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2006, 11:53 AM   #2
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
CineForm will provide a RED editing solution. That is all I can say on the matter.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2006, 12:01 PM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
David, that's fantastic news!
Alex Raskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2006, 05:14 PM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: switzerland
Posts: 2,131
RED codec is Jpeg2000 not cineform wavelet or DCT mpeg-like.
there is no technical reason why cineform could not convert this format, but it is not obvious that any benefit would be obtained here, except compatibility with some applications.
The way wavelet works, it is very calculation intensive to generate the multi level pictures. So big resolution are a penalty here for speed, while jpeg2000 would be faster and just require a lot of memory.
on the other hand, jpeg2000 on high compression gives easily bad result while wavelet is less destructive, so for multiple compilation of same picture, wavelet would be more forgiving.
futur will tell...
Giroud Francois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2006, 05:36 PM   #5
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Once Red makes info on REDCODE public, we will announce why CineForm RAW is a compelling solution to do your post on Red footage. In the meantime everything must be in vague terms, after all, Red is work in progress.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2006, 02:03 PM   #6
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wilmington NC
Posts: 1,414
I like the sound of this.....;)
Obin Olson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2006, 04:34 PM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Russia
Posts: 38
Cineform and Red

Am overjoyed to learn that Cineform will be providing a CineformRaw and not Cineform Intermediate solution for the Red workflow.
Karina Nemuhina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2006, 05:09 PM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Espa - Norway
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroud Francois
RED codec is Jpeg2000 not cineform wavelet or DCT mpeg-like.
there is no technical reason why cineform could not convert this format, but it is not obvious that any benefit would be obtained here, except compatibility with some applications.
The way wavelet works, it is very calculation intensive to generate the multi level pictures. So big resolution are a penalty here for speed, while jpeg2000 would be faster and just require a lot of memory.
on the other hand, jpeg2000 on high compression gives easily bad result while wavelet is less destructive, so for multiple compilation of same picture, wavelet would be more forgiving.
futur will tell...
I thought Redcode was wavelet based... Is this true?

Gunleik
__________________
Red? Sure!
Gunleik Groven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:33 PM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 853
Gunleik,

I think some of the forums, as you indicate, have reported that RED is using JPEG2000. Unfortunately we cannot comment on the record. But if they are using J2K, the Wavelet transforms used in J2K are different than those CineForm uses. However, the general advantages of Wavelet compression over DCT compression hold true in both J2K and CineForm RAW/Intermediate.

David.
David Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:44 PM   #10
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Except CineForm RAW is MUCH faster than J2K. When we starded CineForm we considered J2K, but found it too slow for most post-production needs, that is why CineForm developed our own wavelet compression.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2006, 11:30 PM   #11
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Centreville Va
Posts: 1,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
Except CineForm RAW is MUCH faster than J2K. When we starded CineForm we considered J2K, but found it too slow for most post-production needs, that is why CineForm developed our own wavelet compression.
Someone over at SonyMediasoftware forums claimed you start getting artifacts after a couple of generations of rendering. Hope that isn't true.
__________________
Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!
Joe Carney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2006, 12:11 AM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 853
Joe,

We had two design criteria for CineForm Intermediate/RAW. The first is to have literally zero visual degradation through more than 10 generations of rendering. This is proven in our own visual testing and PSNR (Power Signal-to-Noies Ratio) testing, as well as those of our customers. I don't know the background of the comment posted on the Sony forum, but there are numerous reasons why artifacts may develop, but they're normally a result of improper workflow decisions, not a CineForm codec problem.

One other comment. Most codec R&D has been focused on either acquisition (such as in-camera) or distribution, but most codec research has not focused on holding visual fidelity through multiple generations of rendering. Our visual quality analysis of CineForm Intermediate versus DVCPRO HD clearly shows this: http://www.cineform.com/technology/H...lysis10bit.htm. If your workflow requires multiple generations, most native acquisition codecs are not the best choice. That's why traditionally many users have opted to convert to uncompresed. CineForm Intermediate/RAW is designed to be an alternative to an uncompressed workflow with equivalent visual fidelity, but with numerous advantages - smaller files, more real-time streams, no specialized hardware, etc.

By the way our second codec design criterion was arithmetic efficiency as measured by performance on Intel architecture CPUs. We have no requirement for specialized hardware, either for ingest (capture) or playback at up to 2K resolution on core 2 duo machines, and up to 4K resolution on dual Woodcrest machines. Another "by the way" - we've recently demonstrated real-time dual-stream 4K (!) editing on a dual Woodcrest system. We're literally 5x - 7x higher in editing performance than using J2K.

Last edited by David Taylor; October 17th, 2006 at 12:44 AM.
David Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2006, 01:02 PM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Centreville Va
Posts: 1,828
Thanks for the response. My only reservation about Cineform is having to go to Adobe Premier to get the full benefit. Not your fault considering whats going on over at Sony.

I actually don't know anyone who has shot a full length feature using Premier or Production Studio (Spoon doesn't count because they aren't finsihed and aren't updating their progress anywhere, which makes me wonder).

btw, what are the minimum laptop type core 2 duos acceptable for cineform raw usage (capturing via the upcoming SI cam mainly)?

Lastly, I think the guy over at SonyMediaSoftware was referring to ConnectHD and it's 8bit4:2:2 codec, not the Cineform Raw.
__________________
Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!
Joe Carney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2006, 01:26 PM   #14
CTO, CineForm Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California
Posts: 8,090
Joe, many of our customers have completed feature with Adobe Premiere Pro -- the first of which was very high profile with "Dust to Glory." When know Premiere works for feature work.

The Spoon guys are doing fine, although they have well over 100 hours of footage, so post will take a while. :)

As for the laptop required for SI capture work, go with the fastest. I have used a Sony AR190 with 2.16Ghz Yonah (Core Duo) and Dell M90 with 2.33GHz Merom (Core 2 Duo.) Both worked, yet the 2.33Ghz Merom give you pretty of head around for the highest quality modes. We had issue for 72fps capture with the Yonah, not with the Merom.
__________________
David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com
blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman
David Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2006, 05:32 PM   #15
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Carney
My only reservation about Cineform is having to go to Adobe Premier to get the full benefit. ... I actually don't know anyone who has shot a full length feature using Premier
I use PPro with Coneform AHD on daily basis, and yes I did produce a couple of HD videos that were feature-length.

I can vouch that PPro + Cineform Aspect HD can be successfully used on long form.

No, I am not connected to Cineform or Adobe in any way - just a paying (and satisfied) user.
Alex Raskin is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > CineForm Software Showcase

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:50 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network