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Old November 1st, 2007, 08:14 AM   #16
 
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specs haven't been released on the snadisk SxS cards, yet. But I bet expresscard is faster than CF card.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 08:24 AM   #17
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Maybe so, but as long as CF is fast enough for what you want to do, that's what counts.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 08:33 AM   #18
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specs haven't been released on the snadisk SxS cards, yet. But I bet expresscard is faster than CF card.
I don't think there's any doubt of that, and 100MBs (800Mbs) seems likely, versus 20MBs (160Mbs) of the Extreme III version of CF. But we're also looking at probably about $900 versus about $220. If the CF card is capable of recording the bitstream, it would appear that the only advantage all that extra money gets you is quicker downloading.

For some users the expense will be worth it. Others will happily forego it for the huge price difference.

[EDIT I see Chris beat me to it!]
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Old November 1st, 2007, 08:47 AM   #19
 
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You guys are right, of course. It's just that for the cost of the XDR, let's face it $5k ain't cheap, I would want as much flexibility and future proofness as possible. So, let's say I drop 5K on this thingie, and 6 months from now i buy a Sony XDCAM EX and want to use the 35MB/s datarate. OK, so I RAID 4 cf cards together to get the datarate. Fundamentally, the XDR is worthless to me unless it can accomodate future growth. Ya see? Can the XDR compete against the SxS cards that come with the XDCAM?

Ultimately, the cost of this thingie is high because C-D needs to recoup their non-recurring. (OK, they have some recurring licensing fees?)If enough are produced, the cost comes down. More likely, if this is really a great device, someone with mass production capability will step up to the plate. If SxS cards become de riguer over CF, the XDR will go down in flames as a loss leader.

What am I missing in this story?
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:03 AM   #20
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Bill - I think you may be getting confused between MegaBITS (Mb) and MegaBYTES (MB). The highest native bitrate of the EX is 35M*bits*s (so a bit more than 4M*BYTES*s), or less than a quarter the max of an Extreme III card. There's no need to raid CF cards to record the EX native bitrate, and the significance of the XDR is that it will even record 3x that bitrate onto a single cheap card.

The XDR may not suit everybody, but it could be just what many need.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:06 AM   #21
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If SxS cards become de riguer over CF...
Hmmm... while there's no question that SxS cards will achieve their own popularity, I doubt very highly that they'll ever see as much wide-spread use and acceptance as CF. Express Cards and SxS are relatively new and found mainly in somewhat specialized applications and devices, whereas Compact Flash is dug in, deeply entrenched in the market and no less popular now than they were before (what with D-SLR's, etc.). Can't see Compact Flash going away anytime soon...
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:11 AM   #22
 
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Thanx David...you're right...doh!
Chris...of course CF cards are here to stay. I have a TON of them, already. In fact, I capture to an Extreme IV CF card over firewire and my laptop.
Bottom line...I really like the XDR, just gotta figure out how to pay for it. It's clear that an org with a large op budget doesn't have the issues I have with $5K. It's peanuts to a news organization.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:15 AM   #23
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I really like the XDR, just gotta figure out how to pay for it.
Indeed -- it seems like anything that's SDI-equipped carries a big premium. Cost is always a relative issue; for some folks $5K is a bargain while for others it's a major stretch. I fall into the latter category. The question becomes, how quickly can you make this thing pay for itself.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 11:16 AM   #24
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Are specs more important that usability, practicality and durability ? majority of the thread has been dominated by technical specs- which is good but i am sure there are other factors to be taken into consideration than just figures, or is this something that is not important ?
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Old November 1st, 2007, 11:48 AM   #25
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Chris is right of course. How much is high quality worth to you? Sure it costs $5000.00 but if you need that level of quality chances are you make enough to buy this. For a lot of people they will not be able to earn any more moola then what they earn now with HDV. For example the wedding market. At the end of the day the client isn't going to notice the quality jump as much from regular HDV. If you have highend clients where HDV doesn't cut it then you will be fine buying this device. If you work mostly on experimental pieces you have to decide how much the experiment is worth to you. I like to think of this device as just another part of the camera.

As for the SxS cards on the EX1. Sure they are nice but some people may have to buy 4 cards. That equals pretty close to $3,600.00 just for the cards. What I hope to do is forget the cards get a EX1 and buy this device with 4 cheaper cards. sure it will still cost more doing it this way but not $5,000.00 more and in the process I will have much higher quality and hopefully a format that will actually work in my NLE unlike the mp4 wrapper format that needs to be re-wrapped.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 11:53 AM   #26
 
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Very good points Thomas. As far as my business is concerned, 100% of my clients still take delivery on SD DVD. Small quality improvements in HD are not only unknown to them, they don't even know the difference between HD and HDv. So, there you have it. And it will be quite some time before HDDVD or BD is a household name.

One thing I wonder about, tho'...Sandisk is a collaborator with Sony on the development of the SxS cards. Somehow, it would surprise me if Sandisk didn't find a way to leverage their share into cheaper eCards for the general public. PCMCIA is a legacy product. Express card 54/34 is coming for everyone.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 11:57 AM   #27
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Mike,

How about 720p support? I'm sure you will support 720p 60p but what about 720p 24p? Can you make the device also pull out the repeat frames when 24p sits inside of a 60p stream? I know this is a problem with 720p users who send 24p out of SDI as 60p. Of course all the JVC cameras do this and the new EX1 will also shoot and output 720p through SDI but again I think the EX1 will output the 24p 720p as 60p. As you know 720p 24p sitting inside of 60p is a huge waste of space and bitrates.

If we can have a 720p 24p mode will it have lower bitrate settings since 160 mbits is kind of overkill. According to my tests 120 mbits would be equal to the compression of 60p at 300 mbits. The equal quality level for 160 mbit would be around 64 mbits. 64 mbits would equal a lot of video on 4 cards but compression wise it would be just as clean as the 160 mbit 1080i.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 12:21 PM   #28
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What I like most about this product is its scalability. I can choose the quality and bitrate based on the specific production requirements. If I'm producing a project with a lot interviews then I might use a lower bit rate compression. This allows for more time/card space and the fact that a talking head doesn't have as much picture information to compress say as much as trees or lots of action.

If I'm bidding against someone for a car commercial say "running footage" package, then I might use the higher bit rate. But the cool thing is that it won't cost more for me to go out and rent HDCAM, use expensive tapes etc. In that sense it makes me more competitive on the higher end.

It is also flexible in that you can pick the camera of your choice. Use a JVC 250 if you want to use a lens adaptor, the XDCAM EX if you want 1080p/24 or even a Red and come out HDSDI.

I can use the same device for a wide variety of projects and that's where I think this device is revolutionary.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 04:07 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Stil Williams View Post
Are specs more important that usability, practicality and durability ? majority of the thread has been dominated by technical specs- which is good but i am sure there are other factors to be taken into consideration than just figures, or is this something that is not important ?
Hi Stil-
You raised a very good point. We agree 100%. The technical aspects are critical, but issues such as usability and ruggedness are equally important. We have calls from users wanting to put the box in helicopters and F-16s. So ruggedness is a top priority for us.

We also plan to engage with a number of users to review our box design as well as the menu structure and basic operation of the box. We're also discussing the camera mounting options with IDX and Anton Bauer.

While we have a very good understanding of the electronics and software in the box, we are relying on actual users, like yourself, to guide us on the "human interface" side of the design.

Mike Schell
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Old November 1st, 2007, 04:10 PM   #30
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Mike,

How about 720p support? I'm sure you will support 720p 60p but what about 720p 24p? Can you make the device also pull out the repeat frames when 24p sits inside of a 60p stream? I know this is a problem with 720p users who send 24p out of SDI as 60p. Of course all the JVC cameras do this and the new EX1 will also shoot and output 720p through SDI but again I think the EX1 will output the 24p 720p as 60p. As you know 720p 24p sitting inside of 60p is a huge waste of space and bitrates.

If we can have a 720p 24p mode will it have lower bitrate settings since 160 mbits is kind of overkill. According to my tests 120 mbits would be equal to the compression of 60p at 300 mbits. The equal quality level for 160 mbit would be around 64 mbits. 64 mbits would equal a lot of video on 4 cards but compression wise it would be just as clean as the 160 mbit 1080i.
Thomas makes a great point. Shoot at the most efficient bit rate based on what your shooting rez and frame rate. Red out HDSDI at 4:2:2 I frame 160Mbit 1080p/24 (which would look awesome I think) and a Canon HV20 via HDMI to HDSDI at a lower rate, maybe 50Mbit.

And to add to my post above, it may make sense to record at the bit rate that most efficiently encodes the resolution and frame rate that your shooting. For example, on an EX out HDSDI , 720p/24 at 100Mbits and 1080p/24 at 160Mbits.
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