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Old November 1st, 2007, 05:14 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
Hmmm... while there's no question that SxS cards will achieve their own popularity, I doubt very highly that they'll ever see as much wide-spread use and acceptance as CF. Express Cards and SxS are relatively new and found mainly in somewhat specialized applications and devices, whereas Compact Flash is dug in, deeply entrenched in the market and no less popular now than they were before (what with D-SLR's, etc.). Can't see Compact Flash going away anytime soon...
There is no doubt that the Express Cards have a much higher potential read speed (800 Mbps) than current generation CF cards (160 Mbps Extreme III and 320 Mbps Extreme IV). But the actual read performance depends on the interface. Yes, you can get blazing speed when the Express Card is plugged into the PCIe expansion slot. But what if this slot is already occupied with a RAID disk array card or some other device? Then your forced to use a USB adapter, which will greatly reduce the download speed.

I do agree the SxS cards will find a following, but nothing like Compact Flash, which is used in zillions of DSLR cameras. I count 8-10 CF card manufacturers today with a huge sales channel. CF card prices have fallen some 40% in the last 12 months. All indications point to further price reductions as there is a glut of NAND Flash chips on the market. Competition works in our favor.

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Old November 1st, 2007, 05:39 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
Mike,

How about 720p support? I'm sure you will support 720p 60p but what about 720p 24p? Can you make the device also pull out the repeat frames when 24p sits inside of a 60p stream? I know this is a problem with 720p users who send 24p out of SDI as 60p. Of course all the JVC cameras do this and the new EX1 will also shoot and output 720p through SDI but again I think the EX1 will output the 24p 720p as 60p. As you know 720p 24p sitting inside of 60p is a huge waste of space and bitrates.

If we can have a 720p 24p mode will it have lower bitrate settings since 160 mbits is kind of overkill. According to my tests 120 mbits would be equal to the compression of 60p at 300 mbits. The equal quality level for 160 mbit would be around 64 mbits. 64 mbits would equal a lot of video on 4 cards but compression wise it would be just as clean as the 160 mbit 1080i.
Thomas-
You raised a very good point. Thanks for pointing out the 720p24 support on the XDCAM EX camera, we had missed this point. We're 99% sure we'll be able to support this same rate, since the Sony module used in Flash XDR is the same MPEG2 CODEC used in the XDCAM EX camera (the module actually has 2 CODECs, so we can support the 4:2:2 profile). Removal of the pulldown for 720p is no problem since we already do it for 1080i video.

We're going to support MPEG2 Long-GOP (4:2:2) at 50 and 100 Mbps and MPEG2 I-Frame (4:2:2) at 50, 100 and 160 Mbps rates. You will be able to select these rates with any of the video formats. If you're shooting 1080p24, then 100 Mbps may be more than adequate or 720p24 will probably look great at 50 Mbps. You can make the final choice.

Mike
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Old November 1st, 2007, 05:40 PM   #33
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The question all this really begs to be answered is why there is no camera at this pricepoint which natively uses Compact Flash, and offers a choice of bitrates similar to the XDR?

P2 and SxS may be more appropiate for higher end products, and SD and MemoryStick for the lower end, but surely CF is the obvious choice for cameras in the EX/HVX sector?

That said, I'm sure Convergent Design are pleased about it....... :-)
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Old November 1st, 2007, 05:43 PM   #34
 
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In the, "For what it's worth" category...

nNovia is currently selling a direct to edit product that uses a 16MB solid state storage device that is pluggable into their QC Deck. Cost for this ruggedized option is about $1500 for the interface and $500 for the solid state cartridges(made by Audavi). Interface specs are for HDv over firewire, with an option for SD.

The reason CF card prices are falling is because all the manufacturers have paid off their non-recurring. Does C-D have the manufacturing capacity to pay their NR off? Do they have the market base? Do they even care? While the ENG base might number in the hundreds, the event videographer base must be in the thousands. Is it financially wise to ignore this base?

I just read from a Sony site that their USB SxS card reader has 240 Mbps read and 120 Mbps write capability. I'm sure the limitation is USB 2.0 I/O, not SxS card I/O.

Last edited by Bill Ravens; November 1st, 2007 at 06:26 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 06:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
In the, "For what it's worth" category...

The reason CF card prices are falling is because all the manufacturers have paid off their non-recurring. Does C-D have the manufacturing capacity to pay their NR off? Do they have the market base? Do they even care?

I just read from a Sony site that their USB SxS card reader has 240 Mbps read and 120 Mbps write capability. I'm sure the limitation is USB 2.0 I/O, not SxS card I/O.
Hi Bill-
To be honest, we have not even begun to think about the pay back on the non-recurring engineering costs. That's a long ways down the road....

Regarding the the SxS vs CF performance discussion, using a USB 2.0 reader, the Express card has a read speed of 240 Mbps, while the Extreme III CF card is about 140 Mbps (according to independent tests). So, the Express card is still faster, but you pay quite a premium for this added performance when using USB 2.0 reader. In my view, the Express card only has value if you're planning to use the PCIe slot for transfers.

BTW, Extreme IV cards have a read transfer rate of about 300 Mbps when combined with the Firewire 800 reader. But, the largest Extreme IV card available today is only 8GB ($145, after rebate). But, I expect we'll see 16GB Extreme IV cards next year.

I just checked B&H, Extreme III 16GB cards are now $200 (after rebate).

Mike
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Old November 1st, 2007, 07:01 PM   #36
 
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Mike...

Thanx for taking the time to provide some feedback. Interesting stuff, indeed.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 12:13 PM   #37
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Indeed -- it seems like anything that's SDI-equipped carries a big premium. Cost is always a relative issue; for some folks $5K is a bargain while for others it's a major stretch. I fall into the latter category. The question becomes, how quickly can you make this thing pay for itself.
$5K USD is a hefty point, and others bring up good reasons to buy in, but my concern is the near future. In my opinion Sony is raising the bar by offering the EX1. At $6,500 USD, this is an awesome deal. I would not be surprised if they had an "EX2" up their sleeves for the future that offered 4:2:2 within the cam to onboard memory. Especially with the price of memory improving as it has over the last year!
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 12:27 PM   #38
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I think Sony has announced a 4:2:2 camera, but it's in the $35K price range.

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Old November 2nd, 2007, 02:18 PM   #39
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DVCrp50 question

Hi MIke, I shoot using a DVCpro50 at 16:9 30p for DVD authoring.

Will your new product redord this stream in Panasonic XMF ir just Sony's XMF ?

Thanks, Patrick
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Old November 4th, 2007, 12:08 PM   #40
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Having a new look at the XDR spec sheet, I notice that whilst it talks of a Firewire OUTPUT, there's no mention of an INPUT.

I appreciate that most of the interest on this board is concerned with using it with the EX or a JVC camera and hence input via HD-SDI. Whilst that may well be a future use for me, at the moment my interests are primarily SD, DVCAM, and tapeless working, and it would be nice to avoid having to buy a Firestore in the interim, if this would be suitable. (And nice to avoid the fan noise and long boot up time..... :-) ) Hence, my question would be whether it would accept an input via Firewire? It would also be useful if it then also gave SDI out, so doubling as a Firewire to SDI convertor.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 01:33 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Mike Schell View Post
Hi Bill-
Regarding the the SxS vs CF performance discussion, using a USB 2.0 reader, the Express card has a read speed of 240 Mbps, while the Extreme III CF card is about 140 Mbps (according to independent tests). So, the Express card is still faster, but you pay quite a premium for this added performance when using USB 2.0 reader. In my view, the Express card only has value if you're planning to use the PCIe slot for transfers.
Mike
Not that I think you've picked the wrong horse with CF cards (they're much cheaper), but I just wanted to point out that a PC is not limited to one Express card slot... I don't want to post a link to a non sponsor but $US26.95 will buy you an Express Card to PCIe adapter.. and I think pretty soon notebooks will start doubling up their Express card slots in much the same way as they used to have 2 PCMCIA slots.

Eventually I think ExpressCard slots will become standard equipment on desktops as well as notebooks.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 03:00 AM   #42
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Not that I think you've picked the wrong horse with CF cards (they're much cheaper), ............
Eventually I think ExpressCard slots will become standard equipment on desktops as well as notebooks.
I made a few comments about this a while ago: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=102312 . (Posts 15 and 22.)

I cetainly don't think CF is the wrong horse - but it would be good for the user to have the option which horse to back. I wondered about the possibility of 2 SxS slots, 2 CF? (Maybe with a possibility of SxS-CF adaptors to enable 4 CF cards if desired?)

I also still feel the market is crying out for a smaller, cheaper, lighter version - a "CF based, solid state, Firestore", IN ADDITION to the XDR.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 07:07 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by John Mitchell View Post
Eventually I think ExpressCard slots will become standard equipment on desktops as well as notebooks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
...it would be good for the user to have the option which horse to back. I wondered about the possibility of 2 SxS slots, 2 CF?
In all honesty the question of card format really is a non-issue here. The Convergent Designs XDR is a $5,000 unit which records from an SDI input, which is clearly a highly specialized application. Do you realize what a niche market that is. Obviously they're not going for broad market penetration here. What difference does it make if laptops have ExpressCard slots (in fact most new ones already do). So what -- not everybody who buys a laptop needs an SDI recorder. There's only a minority of SDI equipped camcorders in the first place, and if you have one and you can afford to add the XDR to your kit, then it's no big deal to add a CF card reader as well.

This isn't about backing a horse, as if there has to be a "winner" between CF and ExpressCard. Both formats are going to be around for quite awhile.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 07:47 AM   #44
 
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Well, now, Chris, it would seem to me(and what do I know) that a company is in business to make money. If more money can be made with the same, or less, investment dollars, wouldn't it be prudent to go for it? I guess, I don't understand C-D's marketing strategy by going for a very high dollar, specialized niche market, when a very similar (and cheaper) product could bring much more return on their development investment dollar.

By Mike Schell's own admission, C-D has goiven NO thought to return on their non-recurring engineering cost! What kind of company is that? Certainly not one I would want to buy stock in. It would appear C-D's agenda is not one many of us can understand. IMHO, C-D is really the first to market with a device that many. many videographers would LOVE to have. Unfortunately, their pricing philosophy is out of line with the majority of the market. Considering the potential for an affordable solid state, direct to edit device, C-D doesn't seem, to me anyway, be doing much for most small videographers.

I, for one, am sick to death of high priced technology that becomes obsolete within 6 months. How many businesses can afford $5K outlays that have a halflife of 6 months?

How much is that doggie in the window?
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Old November 5th, 2007, 08:29 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
In all honesty the question of card format really is a non-issue here. ............

This isn't about backing a horse, as if there has to be a "winner" between CF and ExpressCard. Both formats are going to be around for quite awhile.
What you say is true if referred to a wholly self contained operation, but I was referring to my previous comment:
Quote:
At the moment, much production (at least in the UK) is still SD widescreen, and the use of such DVCAM cameras as the DSR500/570/450 is very widespead. High Definition and tapeless working are on the agenda, and likely to form two essential items when camera upgrades are required.

In practice, the tapeless facility of a camera is likely to be used much earlier the High Definition capability, though this will obviously vary from user to user. A lot of advance interest has been generated by Sonys announcement of SxS development. A device such as yours with SxS cards would enable a broadcaster to move on to a solid state infrastructure based on that platform, without needing to immediately replace all existing cameras. It would also enable a DVCAM tape recording to be made as backup/archive simultaneously to a tapeless recording intended for more immediate use.

It would also be potentially very valuable to such as a freelance with a DSR450, who may be working for clients who start to demand SxS compatibility. Until they start to require HD, he would be able to satisfy their needs without having to buy another camera.
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