Question about the Nano Flash and my EX1 - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > External Video Recording Solutions > Convergent Design Odyssey

Convergent Design Odyssey
...and other Convergent Design products.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 23rd, 2008, 08:48 AM   #16
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: santa fe, nm
Posts: 3,264
Images: 10
Tim...yes, thanx for the clarification.
Bill Ravens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2008, 10:18 AM   #17
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 230
Gracias for your patience in explaining this, ha! Like I said, I'm new to this video stuff so I don't know what "normal" is. Some people are telling me it should remain sharp with s-l-o-w pans, and some are saying it's normal. Some people keep asking for "motion" tests with the XDR/NanoFlash because they imply motion is the weakness of Long GOP. So I don't know what normal is due to lack of experience, or if intra-frame doesn't have this issue, or if Long GOP wouldn't have this issue if the bit rate was much higher, etc. If I-frame will solve the issue, as was just suggested (if I read it correctly) then that would suggest it's a Long GOP compression issue. I guess. Maybe. I think. ha!

I guess I'll just hang out and be patient and wait for some motion testing with the XDR and/or NanoFlash to see if there's a difference. Thank you!
Buck Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2008, 10:36 AM   #18
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: santa fe, nm
Posts: 3,264
Images: 10
yeah....kinda what I'm doing....

When I first saw this "blurring" on pans with my EX1, I assumed it was because I was panning too fast, as others have suggested. I practiced with excrutiatingly slow pans, in my attempt to minimize the motion blur, to no effect. Those who suggest this is an artifact of panning too fast have no experience with the 35mbps Sony encoder. What I've seen is that anytime the entire frame translates horizontally (not necessarily vertically), this faux motion blur happens. It's really not motion blur, but, compression artifacting due to motion.
Bill Ravens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2008, 10:39 AM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 3,869
Buck and Bill I hope I can answer both of your questions when I receive my XDR Flash in a month. Most of what I shoot is fast motion and hoping this will improve picture quality at 1080p 30p 100Mbps 422.
__________________
Paul Cronin
www.paulcroninstudios.com
Paul Cronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2008, 06:36 PM   #20
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Letch View Post
has much to do with what your referring to here, sure you get codec breakup etc, but any pan will smooth things out so I'm not sure why your looking for sharp detail under these circumstances? you can up the shutter speed quite high to improve this.
Or maybe I'm just missing the whole jist of what's being discussed here? Which as Perrone said the bit rate won't help change this fact.

Sorry if I've missed it??

Adam
Hi Adam! What I'm referring to are very slow pans. I watch nature HD flicks a lot and they are magically sharp even with slow panning movements. I'm not seeing this with my EX1... it's razor sharp until the slightest movement. When I shoot 108060i this is minimized, or 720 60p, so I'm wondering why I can't shoot 1080 30p and keep it sharp with slow pans? What's causing it to lose sharpness when I don't see it on HD programs, or nearly as much with 1080 60i. I'm still learning all this stuff. I have no idea why.
Buck Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2008, 06:51 PM   #21
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 3,869
Buck after a long conversation with Mike and reading everything I could on the subject in a week I am convinced the faster bit rate will help. How much I do not know. And like you I do not know the details but being an engineer it all makes sense to me. Still this does not mean I fully understand it so only one way to find out.
__________________
Paul Cronin
www.paulcroninstudios.com
Paul Cronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2008, 07:01 PM   #22
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UT
Posts: 945
It will definitely help if it isn't an EX1 image processing issue. I know that I get much sharper rendition of motion when I've recorded to higher bit rate codecs via SDI from the XL-H1. (shutter speed notwithstanding...obviously how sharp a pan looks does depend somewhat on pan speed and shutter speed)

I've just had a sneak peek at a 100mbs XDR-processed version of a ProRes HQ raw SDI clip I submitted to C-D.

The result is stunning. The visual fidelity of the 100mb MPEG2 422 mode is basically the same as ProRes.

There's no doubt it would be a signifigant improvement over XDCAM EX HQ compression. The added color resolution alone is worth the price of admission to me.
Barlow Elton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2008, 07:06 PM   #23
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 3,869
Thanks Barlow
__________________
Paul Cronin
www.paulcroninstudios.com
Paul Cronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2008, 03:03 PM   #24
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Springs CO
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Forester View Post
I guess I'll just hang out and be patient and wait for some motion testing with the XDR and/or NanoFlash to see if there's a difference. Thank you!
Ask and ye shall receive.

Here is a comparision between a frame shot with the EX1, 24fps at 1/2000th second shutter, recorded on both the camera's 35Mb/sec codec and the FlashXDR at 100Mb/sec.

Why the super high shutter speed? I want to remove any trace of motion blur from this test. The two ways you can stress a codec are to have high detail in the picture and fast temporal changes between those images. So I shot a whip pan with razor sharp images that change significantly from frame to frame...

Here is the source sequence for reference..

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/o...astshutter.mov

And here is a 200% enlargement of one of those whip frames, with heavy levels applied to pop out the compression blocking...

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/o...ighShutter.png

Pretty clear that the FlashXDR's 100Mb/sec provides the more robust picture under "codec buster" situations. Just look at the macroblocking in the tree, the ragged edge of the tree trunk and the chroma blur of the trailer's red lights in the 35Mb/sec image.

And here are are the 35Mb/sec and 100Mb/sec frames as a Photoshop layered file for any who wish to do their own image manipulation tests... of course you'll need Photoshop and understand how to work with a layered file...

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/o...ighShutter.zip

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
Jim Arthurs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 01:05 PM   #25
Convergent Design
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 869
Hi Jim-
Thanks! I studied the layered Photoshop file in great detail. There is a very clear reduction (essentially eliminination) in the compression artifact level in the 100 Mbps 4:2:2 over the 35 Mbps 4:2:0. Admittedly, this a real torture test of a fast panning shot, but it really shows how well the long-GOP format holds up to high-motion content, especially as you go to the 100 Mbps level.

I am now convinced that there is little or no gain going to the 160 Mbps I-Frame only mode. While we will offer this mode, I think the video quality will be inferior to the 100 Mbps Long-GOP, even in the most demanding scenes. The Sony engineers did a brilliant job with this long-GOP CODEC design, all you really need to do is crank up the bit-rate to get visually lossless video, IMO.

It is very clear that 100 Mbps Long-GOP Quality >> 100 Mbps I-Frame, especially DVCProHD, which subsamples the video to 1280x1080 before compression. Comparison reports from German testers have indicated that I-Frame Only 100 Mbps JPEG2K is below the 35 Mbps HQ mode (in the EX1/EX3) in overall quality. Again, the ability to compress redundancies within a Frame (I-Frame) and from frame to frame (P,B) can produce superior video quality over the simpler I-Frame only CODECs.

This is really no big surprise, but it's great to see real-world evidence.
__________________
Mike Schell
Convergent Design
Mike Schell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 01:13 PM   #26
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: santa fe, nm
Posts: 3,264
Images: 10
Hey Mike...

I know you probably get harassed all the time about schedules. Guess I'm no different. Really wondering what the latest projection is for release of nano-flash to early adopters.

Also, since I'm mainly a PC type user, will Avid be able to handle the 100mbps sony codec. It does quite well with RED and DNX185. Is anything in the works for Avid and nano-flash?

TIA
Bill Ravens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 02:15 PM   #27
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UT
Posts: 945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Schell View Post
I am now convinced that there is little or no gain going to the 160 Mbps I-Frame only mode. While we will offer this mode, I think the video quality will be inferior to the 100 Mbps Long-GOP, even in the most demanding scenes. The Sony engineers did a brilliant job with this long-GOP CODEC design, all you really need to do is crank up the bit-rate to get visually lossless video, IMO.
I think the 100mbs Long GOP is actually superior to standard ProRes, and maybe even equal or better than ProRes HQ, given an 8-bit quantized image.
Barlow Elton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 07:33 PM   #28
Convergent Design
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
Hey Mike...

I know you probably get harassed all the time about schedules. Guess I'm no different. Really wondering what the latest projection is for release of nano-flash to early adopters.

Also, since I'm mainly a PC type user, will Avid be able to handle the 100mbps sony codec. It does quite well with RED and DNX185. Is anything in the works for Avid and nano-flash?

TIA
Hi Bill-
No problem asking about the progress. We're in PCB (Printed Circuit Board) layout and cabinet design. In all honesty, progress on nanoFlash is behind schedule, primarily due to debug / development of the Flash XDR. The good news is that 95% of the code will transfer from XDR to nano, so once we can transfer our engineers off XDR, we should be able to finish nanoFlash in very short order.

We should start debug of nanoFlash in November and hopefully have some initial units in December. I'll keep you posted on the progress. I apologize for the delays.
__________________
Mike Schell
Convergent Design
Mike Schell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 07:37 PM   #29
Convergent Design
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
Hey Mike...

Also, since I'm mainly a PC type user, will Avid be able to handle the 100mbps sony codec. It does quite well with RED and DNX185. Is anything in the works for Avid and nano-flash?

TIA
Hi Bill-
I forgot to answer the second part of your question..

We are hopeful that Avid, Edius and Vegas will be support the 100 Mbps data-rate. Based on our experience with FCP, I think this is very likely. We should know in about 2-3 weeks.
__________________
Mike Schell
Convergent Design
Mike Schell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 08:33 PM   #30
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: santa fe, nm
Posts: 3,264
Images: 10
Great news, thanx.
I follow the updates on Flash XDR. Good stuff, especially since I know that Flash->nano is a small step. The hardware is another thing, which you filled me in on. That's what I was asking about. Thanx for the update. I am patient, no hurry.
Bill Ravens is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > External Video Recording Solutions > Convergent Design Odyssey

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:28 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network