Noise comparison: 35/4:2:0 vs. 180/4:2:2

Mark Job · August 12th, 2010, 02:26 PM

Hi Gints & Adam:
In my visual testing & experimentation, I have noticed a slight decrease in overall noise if I shoot exteriors at -3 db gain.

Gints Klimanis · August 12th, 2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

(It would be best if the VBR files work in every NLE. If not, then we would be creating a "trap" in which a user could select an option, but then his or her files would not work in their NLE.)

This should be up to the user. We already have the trap of shimmering MPEG at 140-180 Mbps. I want 140 or 180 Mbps LongGOP VBR exceed the quality of 220-280 Mbps I-Frame only. Besides, after reckoning with the Force of the Flash, NLE's will be scrambling to add new Nano/XDR file compatibility to their editing suites ASAP. The Nano is unleashing a slew of scalable recording options.

It wasn't too long ago (pre-2008) that nearly all major news networks would refuse downloading my DV (.avi) and HDV (.m2t) files and instead insisted on my writing the clips/concatenations to tape to be sent via Overnight Fedex. Some then lost 1/2 to a full day sending my tapes to a conversion house so that they can be written to yet another tape.

Adam Stanislav · August 12th, 2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

If not, then we would be creating a "trap" in which a user could select an option, but then his or her files would not work in their NLE.

And since the user is most likely a pro, he would much rather have the "trappy" option available than be treated like someone who does not needs to be protected from himself.

I mean how is it different from having manual focus available? We know what we are doing, and when there is something we do not know, we are willing to learn it. If we were scared of such traps, we would be using $130 camcorders.

Dan Keaton · August 13th, 2010, 01:53 AM

Dear Fiends,

My comment was not meant to be condescending.

My comment was directed to the fact that we want our nanoFlash to be a reliable recording device.

I hope everyone will realize that many crews do not own a nanoFlash, and they receive it the morning of the shoot, or the day before. Quite often they are not in a position to record files and test them in their NLE and workflow. Others, of course, have time to learn the nanoFlash.

Of course we do not want to "dumb down" the nanoFlash.

In an ideal world, we would just test VBR, and it would work, be better, and be accepted in every NLE without problems. We have not run these tests yet.

Another thing that we have considered is adding an "Advanced Settings" menu area, and a way to quickly set all "Advanced Settings" to the defaults.

We are also working on Profiles which will help in this area.

The current standard for Sony XDCam footage is 50 Mbps 4:2:2 CBR. This is what is accepted by the NLE's that support XDCAM footage.

CS5 officially supports other bit rates that we offer.

The Mainconcept Codec for Adobe CS3 and CS4 adds support for all of our modes and bit-rates and we greatly appreciate their efforts to support our products.

Final Cut Pro and others only suppport Sony XDCam footage at 50 Mbps 4:2:2 CBR.
Thus, we label our higher bit-rate footage, such as our 280 Mbps footage, as 50 Mbps so that FCP will recognize it.

Our engineers feel that we we cannot label VBR footage as CBR in the file header. They feel that the footage will not work if we do. We, at this moment, have not run this test.

In our next release, our MPG footage will be VBR. We just made that change.

Piotr Wozniacki · August 13th, 2010, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

I'm not sure if you're implying that the Sony noise level is less at Gain=-3dB, but there are a number of posts on the Sony XDCAM group that -3dB does not provide a higher SNR - only a signal attenuated by 3 dB.

That's what I mean, Gints - sorry if was unclear.

Mike Marriage · August 13th, 2010, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Another thing that we have considered is adding an "Advanced Settings" menu area, and a way to quickly set all "Advanced Settings" to the defaults.

Sounds like a good idea. Or you could offer an optional VBR firmware update that is not recommended for rental units along with an explanation. That way a pro who wanted VBRs could choose to download the VBR enabled firmware and would be well aware of the consequences.

That would protect the naive and enable the wise.

Dan Keaton · August 13th, 2010, 06:47 AM

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your suggestion.

Bob Grant · August 13th, 2010, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

Sounds like a good idea. Or you could offer an optional VBR firmware update that is not recommended for rental units along with an explanation. That way a pro who wanted VBRs could choose to download the VBR enabled firmware and would be well aware of the consequences.

That would protect the naive and enable the wise.

I'll second that.
I suspect many here do not understand what it can be like for a rental company.

Mark Job · August 13th, 2010, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Fiends,
In our next release, our MPG footage will be VBR. We just made that change.

...Hi Dan: Could we also have that advanced menu and VBR *Option* ported to the XDR ?

Dan Keaton · August 13th, 2010, 08:24 AM

Dear Mark,

Yes.

I need to clarify. We have three file types: MOV, MXF, and MPG.

We have enabled VBR for MPG only.

I doubt that you are using MPG, but maybe you are.

Mark Job · August 13th, 2010, 09:22 AM

Hi Dan:
Yes, I do use .MPG feature (Which was busted for playback in the XDR BTW - I haven't tested that long duration .MPG playback lately). I use .MPG recording to make quick industrial Kiosk Blu-ray DVD's. It works *very well btw.

Gints Klimanis · August 13th, 2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

I need to clarify. We have three file types: MOV, MXF, and MPG.

We have enabled VBR for MPG only.

Dan, the interest in Constant Quality MPEG2 and VBR is heating up. So, you already provide VBR for MPG (I haven't used that) recording ?

Gints Klimanis · August 13th, 2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

In our next release, our MPG footage will be VBR. We just made that change.

Missed this gem. Really ? I'm willing to test the alpha/beta/whatever.

Mark Job · August 13th, 2010, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

Missed this gem. Really ? I'm willing to test the alpha/beta/whatever.

...Hey Gints: I thought the point of this exercise would be to offer the *option for us end users to be able to engage VBR encoding when shooting Long GOP and I - Frame ? In my opinion, this is what I think needs to happen. (Although it's always great to have this on .MPG setting, but let's be real - How many of us will do any real big work in .MPG setting ?)

Gints Klimanis · August 13th, 2010, 06:16 PM

Mark, agreed. I'm just anxious to find out if a VBR implementation will reduce the LongGOP shimmering that started this thread.

August 12th, 2010, 02:26 PM	#271
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Minus 3 DB Gain On Canon XL H1 Hi Gints & Adam: In my visual testing & experimentation, I have noticed a slight decrease in overall noise if I shoot exteriors at -3 db gain.

August 13th, 2010, 01:53 AM	#274
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Fiends, My comment was not meant to be condescending. My comment was directed to the fact that we want our nanoFlash to be a reliable recording device. I hope everyone will realize that many crews do not own a nanoFlash, and they receive it the morning of the shoot, or the day before. Quite often they are not in a position to record files and test them in their NLE and workflow. Others, of course, have time to learn the nanoFlash. Of course we do not want to "dumb down" the nanoFlash. In an ideal world, we would just test VBR, and it would work, be better, and be accepted in every NLE without problems. We have not run these tests yet. Another thing that we have considered is adding an "Advanced Settings" menu area, and a way to quickly set all "Advanced Settings" to the defaults. We are also working on Profiles which will help in this area. The current standard for Sony XDCam footage is 50 Mbps 4:2:2 CBR. This is what is accepted by the NLE's that support XDCAM footage. CS5 officially supports other bit rates that we offer. The Mainconcept Codec for Adobe CS3 and CS4 adds support for all of our modes and bit-rates and we greatly appreciate their efforts to support our products. Final Cut Pro and others only suppport Sony XDCam footage at 50 Mbps 4:2:2 CBR. Thus, we label our higher bit-rate footage, such as our 280 Mbps footage, as 50 Mbps so that FCP will recognize it. Our engineers feel that we we cannot label VBR footage as CBR in the file header. They feel that the footage will not work if we do. We, at this moment, have not run this test. In our next release, our MPG footage will be VBR. We just made that change. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia Last edited by Dan Keaton; August 13th, 2010 at 05:32 AM.

August 13th, 2010, 06:47 AM	#277
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mike, Thank you for your suggestion. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

August 13th, 2010, 08:24 AM	#280
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, Yes. I need to clarify. We have three file types: MOV, MXF, and MPG. We have enabled VBR for MPG only. I doubt that you are using MPG, but maybe you are. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

August 13th, 2010, 09:22 AM	#281
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Sometimes I used It To Make Quick Blu_ray DVD's Hi Dan: Yes, I do use .MPG feature (Which was busted for playback in the XDR BTW - I haven't tested that long duration .MPG playback lately). I use .MPG recording to make quick industrial Kiosk Blu-ray DVD's. It works *very well btw.

August 13th, 2010, 06:16 PM	#285
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Mark, agreed. I'm just anxious to find out if a VBR implementation will reduce the LongGOP shimmering that started this thread.