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Old April 28th, 2011, 07:07 AM   #1
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10 Bit Cameras

So what cameras under $25,000 actually put out a TRUE 10-bit signal for recording to the upcoming Gemini recorder?

No SMPTE 10-bit signal with an empty 2-bits like the XLH1 effectively making it 8-bit.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 09:11 AM   #2
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Sony PMW-F3 does right out of the box with no firmware update. You only need the update if you want to run S-Log 10bit.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #3
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Depends if you need an ENG cam such as the Sony PMW-350 or S35 camera.

Really, the F3 + S-Log and its 10bit 444 RGB output and Gemini for $25,000 (including SSDs & SxS) is an amazing combo which competes with far higher priced cameras including Red. You get 14 stops of Dynamic Range, 10bit and 444 in a very easy to use system. Part of the reason so many people are flocking to the F3 rather than Red (or even from Red) is the simpler workflow.

With the release of Gemini, raid card manufacturers should see an increase in sales; so, people can keep up with the high data rate.

To C-D guys, if you want any assistance/suggestions/advice on raid for your customers, I would be glad to help in any way. I have a 3ware card in my home workstation, an Areca 1680ix in my HP Z800 and another 3ware in my playout server. I have 14 drives in my home workstation, 12 in my Z800 and 5 in the server. Editing uncompressed video entails a lot more than just hooking up a bunch of drives in Raid 0 if you want stability, reliability and a smooth editing experience.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 06:56 AM   #4
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Don't forget the EX1/3 put out a true 10bit signal as well.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 08:09 AM   #5
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
....Editing uncompressed video entails a lot more than just hooking up a bunch of drives in Raid 0 if you want stability, reliability and a smooth editing experience.
Being able to online to Prores LT, I wouldn't spend much money in super-fast storage.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 08:44 PM   #6
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Richard View Post
So what cameras under $25,000 actually put out a TRUE 10-bit signal for recording to the upcoming Gemini recorder?

No SMPTE 10-bit signal with an empty 2-bits like the XLH1 effectively making it 8-bit.
You can get Pana 3100 for $19,500.. fantastic camera for the price.. for doco/live action work where you need a zoom.. or drama..
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 07:29 AM   #7
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Dear Steve,

Thank you for your offer.

We welcome your suggestions.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 02:14 PM   #8
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

I think all SONY XDCAM and all PANA AVC-I put out true 10b Unc.
Modern cameras process at 12 and 14 bits.
8 or 10b out is a manufacturers decision.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 04:09 PM   #9
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

The problem with some lower end cameras like the EX1/3 is that they are so noisy that 10bit adds nothing.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 07:19 PM   #10
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Steve, noise has nothing to do with bit depth.
Noisy or not is not the same having 256 shades grades than 1024.

When camera are not properly set, the best camera can be noisy.
My EX-1 is not noisy at all and the 10b shines when recording Prores with the ioHD.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 01:29 AM   #11
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Rafael,

I am sorry to inform you but the EX1 & EX3 are very noisy cameras no matter how the PP is set. I have done extensive testing with my EX1 & EX3 and only after I process 280Mb nanoFlash files with Neat Video and export to Cineform 444, I can start to actually push the colors in After Effects without the noise destroying the image. I have some experience with DaVinci Resolve and I can duplicate what Resolve does within AE, albeit at a much slower pace.

Also, noise and sensitivity determine the actual bit depth. Dan Keaton explained that for every 1bit, you need a clean 6db of sensitivity. With the EX1's measured sensitivity of 48db, there is only 8bits of info available.

The easiest way to see the noise is to shoot a greenscreen and then key out the green with a white background. You will then see the large blocky noise.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 03:29 AM   #12
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Steve, you know very well I'm with you on how noisy the EX1/3 cameras are...

That said, I still believe it'd be nice to capture all 10 bits on the nanoFlash (as we're on the CD forum now, right?). I also am using NeatVideo extensively, and very often - with most noise removed - the resultant images start to show a very awful color banding, I believe that should NeatVideo be run on 10 bit 422 files, the result would be even better!

Before de-noising, those extra 2 bits of (mostly) noise help disguise banding a bit as the image is dithered from 10 to 8 bits.

Also, my little theory is that the noise we see on those large, uniform-color, mid-bright areas is partly due to those 2 bits of color information missing. The fluctuations of current from the photosites translate to very slight fluctuations of the color information; did we have all the 1024 shades of it (rather than just 256), those shimmering stains/blots would not be as striking as they are now...

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Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; May 3rd, 2011 at 04:52 AM.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 03:54 AM   #13
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Piotr,

Very good point about the noise removal. I haven't run into it yet probably because I 'pre-process' certain clips by using Neat Video in Premiere and exporting to Cineform 444, which I then grade in After Effects.

I got the idea for this pre-processing from someone in the Cineform forum who does something similar with 5D footage. He ran into the same banding problem so he added a very small amount of film grain.

Btw, I did a little test with NV and Cineform where I exported the same clip twice: one with NV and one without. The clip WITHOUT NV was over 3 times as large due to all the noise. The source clip was from an EX3 and 280Mb nanoFlash.

I seriously would love someone to make a program that automates the conversion of clips to Cineform with Neat Video noise removal included. Because I use the multiple XDCAM cameras, I can create a noise profile to remove enough noise to make a considerable difference.

And yes, I also would like to record to 10bit but I will never use a Pro Res recorder due to its limited quality (Pro Res HQ at 1080 23.98p has a max data rate of 176Mb/s and its VBR so you don't usually get the full 176Mb/s). Give me Cineform or Uncompressed for the same price and I would be happy :)
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 04:43 AM   #14
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
Also, noise and sensitivity determine the actual bit depth. Dan Keaton explained that for every 1bit, you need a clean 6db of sensitivity. With the EX1's measured sensitivity of 48db, there is only 8bits of info available.
No sense.
Bit depth is a format setting.
Is the number of bits you use to sample an absolute value (luma, chroma, sound,..)
Has nothing to do with noise, sensitivity or whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki;
Before de-noising, those extra 2 bits of (mostly) moise help disguise banding a bit as the image is dithered from 10 to 8 bits.

Also, my little theory is that the noise we see on those large, uniform-color, mid-bright areas is partly due to those 2 bits of color information missing. The fluctuations of current from the photosites translate to very slight fluctuations of the color information; did we have all the 1024 shades of it (rather than just 256), those shimmering "stains" would be as striking as they are now...
If you are testing everything with NANO footage (8b), how you expect to have 1024 ranges of shades?
Have you shoot anything in 10b with your camera?
Do it and compare pictures.

BTW, I'm using NeatVideo since a couple of years. I use it in not only for the EX stuff, but for everything. I stated in this forum long ago the need to apply this filter on the raw footage, before any other processing.

This counts for every kind of footage. Color grading, masks, and any other filter will work better in a noiseless picture than on a noisy one. Once you have processed the picture, the NeatVideo Noise Profiles won't work.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 09:07 AM   #15
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Re: 10 Bit Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafael Amador View Post
If you are testing everything with NANO footage (8b), how you expect to have 1024 ranges of shades?
Dear Rafael,

You didn't get me right - of course I realize I'm only getting 256 shades with both the native EX and nanoFlash recordings, hence I put this speculation with the "my little theory" disclaimer...
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