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Old May 20th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #1
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HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Hey All,

I don't have an extra SDI cable to test this, but will the nanoFLASH output to both HD-SDI and HDMI ports at the same time. If so, can the input be either HD-SDI or HDMI?

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Martin
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Old May 20th, 2011, 06:54 PM   #2
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Dear Martin,

Both outputs are active at the same time.

There are few rare modes that are not supported by HDMI.

An example would be 1080psf24.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #3
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Perfect. I'm trying to find the most logical way to connect my nanoflash, smallHD, and (future) teradek wireless video transmitter to my EX1R. The teradek comes in either HDMI and SDI but the SDI version is $900 extra

I have the SDI out of the EX1R to the nanoflash, and from the nanoflash, SDI out to the smallHD and HDMI out to the video transmitter.

Theoretically this should work. Can anyone think of any reasons why it wouldn't????
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Old May 20th, 2011, 09:33 PM   #4
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Dan...can you comment on latency when cross-converting modes on the Nanoflash? I notice there is a small (maybe 2 frame) delay with HDMI in and SDI out--does this occur in the reverse direction as well?

Something to think about, Martin--latency can be off-putting to the peeps at the monitors when the lips don't match.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 11:35 PM   #5
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

You're so right Charles. I know what you mean. Since I'll be using the monitor mostly for video purposes only (framing, focus, white balance, crane worketc.) audio won't be too much of a problem.

Unfortunately on the EX1R (among other cams I'm sure), the signal can only be outputted from one port at a time. So you have to choose either HDMI, SDI, component, etc. Strangely enough, even with my older HDV camera (Sony Z7), I could have an HDMI out (for nanoFLASH) and component out (for steadicam, monitor, etc.).

The latency is barely noticeable when going from the camera (SDI or HDMI) to the monitor. However, going from the camera, to nanoFLASH, then to the monitor noticeably extends the latency.

Since I don't have 2 SDI cables, I cannot test camera SDI out -> monitor SDI in -> monitor SDI out -> nanoflash SDI in. In this scenario, the latency would be minimal, however, I wouldn't be able to play back recorded files and view them on the monitor unless I rewire the setup. Also, I wonder if the smallHD SDI connection allows the timecode to pass through, allowing the nanoFLASH to be triggered by timecode.

What to do?!?!
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Old May 21st, 2011, 03:14 AM   #6
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Embedded timecode should stay within the signal when looped through a monitor.

You only have one SDI cable??!! I don't think I'm going far out on a limb to suggest you pick up another one (or more) immediately! They are cheap enough (for short lengths, any 75 ohm cable should do) and you'd hate to be caught out on a shoot with no backups if that one failed...

FYI if you or anyone else needs a way to turn a single HD-SDI output to multiples, the Decimator Designs MD-RDA is a 1x6 SDI reclocking distribution amplifier. Same size as the Decimator 2 downconverter (roughly 2/3 the size of a Nanoflash) and sells for $435.
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Old May 21st, 2011, 04:38 AM   #7
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Dear Friends,

The nanoFlash can operate in two modes:

E to E Direct which provides very low latency

and

Regular Mode which has multiple frames of delay (I believe 4 frames)

With Regular Mode (Video|E to E Direct unchecked), we process incomming analog audio and LTC timecode, and add it to the video before it goes out the HD-SDI and HDMI.

Thus for most users, E to E Diect option is appropriate. In this mode analog audio and timecode are added to the images being recorded, but there is not enough time to incorporate these signals into the very low latency outputs (HD-SDI and HDMI).

E to E Direct is also required to be active for our "On Screen Tally" to work.

Thus, E to E Direct is the recommended option for almost every situation.
But E to E Direct must be off if one is going to send the HD-SDI or HDMI signals to another recorder.


When E to E Direct is active, the latency is extremely low, approximately 1 microsecond or so.
The signals come in and are immediately sent back (but the signals are reclocked and repeated as would be expected in high level professional equipment).

While I know the "approximately 1 microsecond latency" applies for HD-SDI, I have not asked our engineers for the precise latency value for the HDMI output. It should be extremely low also.

I hope this helps.
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Old May 21st, 2011, 11:37 AM   #8
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

This is amazing!! Thanks Dan. I never really knew what the E to E setting was for until now.

Charles: Yes, only one *sigh*. Just the one that came with the nano. I haven't really used the nano yet, I'm waiting to get my SD cards for the EX1R to I can trigger the nano using the camera's record function. Plus I'd like to have a backup copy of the nanoFlash files.

But you're right, I need to pick up another cable. Maybe Dan can throw one in if I get the EX1R bracket *wink wink*
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Old May 21st, 2011, 12:08 PM   #9
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Thanks Dan! I thought I had that option checked but apparently I didn't. That's good news.

I've been using the Nano of late as my preferred HDMI to HD-SDI converter (more reliable than the Blackmagic) for DSLR's. Obviously overkill since I'm not using it to record. The latency was the only issue. Glad to know it can be corrected with the proper setting. Only downside is that is extremely difficult to find mini to mini HDMI cables...
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Old May 21st, 2011, 03:24 PM   #10
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Dear Martin,

I will be happy to help. Just call or sent me an email.

Dear Charles,

You are correct, HDMI Mini to Mini cables are hard to find.

Would a 9" HDMI Type C to Type C (Mini to Mini) cable help you?

I have contacted Rick Kelly and nanoFlash.net will have them listed on their site as soon as possible. They will be $11.95 each.
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Last edited by Dan Keaton; May 21st, 2011 at 06:11 PM.
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Old May 21st, 2011, 07:36 PM   #11
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Hi Dan:

Thanks! I saw those 9" ones in my search but that's just undersized for what I need--I have the nano air-spaced behind the camera so I can get to the controls plus I need extra length for proper cable management.

The Cineroid folks have a variety of mini to mini's including right angle ones but according to their website, everything is sold out at present.


I did find a 6" pigtail mini to regular HDMI adaptor which I can use with my existing 18" mini to HDMI cables--I would never use a physical adaptor without a cable in-between (too much stress on that crappy little port) but this will work well, I think.
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 01:25 AM   #12
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post
Dear Friends,

The nanoFlash can operate in two modes:

E to E Direct which provides very low latency

and

Regular Mode which has multiple frames of delay (I believe 4 frames)

With Regular Mode (Video|E to E Direct unchecked), we process incomming analog audio and LTC timecode, and add it to the video before it goes out the HD-SDI and HDMI.

Thus for most users, E to E Diect option is appropriate. In this mode analog audio and timecode are added to the images being recorded, but there is not enough time to incorporate these signals into the very low latency outputs (HD-SDI and HDMI).




E to E Direct is also required to be active for our "On Screen Tally" to work.

Thus, E to E Direct is the recommended option for almost every situation.
But E to E Direct must be off if one is going to send the HD-SDI or HDMI signals to another recorder.


When E to E Direct is active, the latency is extremely low, approximately 1 microsecond or so.
The signals come in and are immediately sent back (but the signals are reclocked and repeated as would be expected in high level professional equipment).

While I know the "approximately 1 microsecond latency" applies for HD-SDI, I have not asked our engineers for the precise latency value for the HDMI output. It should be extremely low also.

I hope this helps.
Hi Dan

I didnt know that E to E direct is recommended mode for normal use.. is that correct ?

Thanks
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 05:57 AM   #13
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Dear Robin,

As long as you do not to have the nanoFlash embed analog audio (via the Mic/Line 3.5mm audio input) and/or LTC timecode (via the remote control connector), the it is perfectly ok to use E to E Direct.

The video and audio latency will be very low if you use E to E Direct, thus this is a very desirable option to use.

It is also required to be on if you want the use the red on-screen tally.

The on-screen tally is very useful if you are using an external monitor.
(But not appropriate if you are sending the nanoFlashes HDMI or HD-SDI outputs to another recorder.)
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 09:29 AM   #14
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post
Dear Robin,

As long as you do not to have the nanoFlash embed analog audio (via the Mic/Line 3.5mm audio input) and/or LTC timecode (via the remote control connector), the it is perfectly ok to use E to E Direct.

The video and audio latency will be very low if you use E to E Direct, thus this is a very desirable option to use.

It is also required to be on if you want the use the red on-screen tally.

The on-screen tally is very useful if you are using an external monitor.
(But not appropriate if you are sending the nanoFlashes HDMI or HD-SDI outputs to another recorder.)
Hi Dan

The video and audio latency will be very low if you use E to E Direct, thus this is a very desirable option to use.

Sorry but could you explain what this means.So as a default you think its better to use E to E direct,when using embedded audio ie NOT the miniplug but from the SDI.. ?

Thanks
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 02:26 PM   #15
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Re: HD-SDI and HDMI simultaneous output??

Dan,

On my EX1R in SDI mode, I can output 29.97 to nanoFLASH then HDMI out to my smallHD monitor with no issues.

However, when I switch to 24p on the camera, the nanoFLASH won't output to the smallHD monitor anymore and I get a "no 24psf out on HDMI".

Strangely enough, the camera can output 24p via HDMI directly to the smallHD (bypassing the nanFLASH) with no issues.

So, is the "no 24p out on HDMI" just a nanoFLASH thing?

Martin
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