Odyssey SSD discussion

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Giroud Francois

well thanks for the test, but looking only at the number you provide, your drive is exactly the same as the samsung 840 pro but more expensive.

And you've independently verified that the marketing Samsung is using for that drive match up with real-world performance?

I used a Samsung 830 Pro SSD in a Blackmagic Cinema Camera and you know what I got? Dropped frames, that's what I got.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Giroud,

I am sorry for our mistake in pricing of the per Gigabyte price of the Sound Devices SSD.

We will correct this as soon as possible.

Amber, who manages our website is at IBC, so please allow her some time to make the correction.


You also mentioned that our drive is exactly the same as the Samsung 840 Pro drive but more expensive.

While this may appear to be the case on the surface, our SSD actually has much lower power consumption, and it has a very important feature: Power Protection. This one feature is vital for safe operation during a shoot, where it is not that unusual for a camera/recorder to lose power, while recording.

Also, one cannot tell when an SSD is busy doing things in the background, for example when we are not recording or playing back from the SSD. Without Power Protection, pulling the SSD can cause problems.

The Samsung specs do not show the actual power draw while writing to the drive at 400 to 500 Megabytes per second.

And the firmware in our SSD, is fine tuned for the types of write that we do, which is entirely different than what occurs in a computer.

I elaborated on this just to point out that one cannot compare the spec's and determine that two SSD's are the same.

Respectfully,

[Garrett Low]

Well for me at least, this thread is really pointing out one thing, that CD has really thoroughly thought out their product and is trying to come to market with something that has predictable and tested results. That is the most important thing in a product that will be used in a professional setting. It's one thing to be beta testing technology on a fun hobby shoot. But it can be a complete embarrassment and business killer if your doing it with a clients project.

I'll wait a few more months or pay a few dollars more to know that a product I'm relying on will work. As a nanoFlash user for several years I can honestly say that the only errors I've had with it were due to my own user error (usually because I was rushing to squeeze off a shot).

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Garrett,

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

And I can confirm that we thoroughly test the SSD's before we select one for production, then we test each and every one individually.

I appreciate your post.

Respectfully,

[John Mitchell]

HI Dan

Small errata in the Sony SxS column of your table - you list the price per GB as $1.50 where as I make it $1800 /512 = over $3.51 per GB . Also you list it as 200MB/s but Sony claims 2.4Gb/s = 300 MB/s not sure who is correct here :)

[John Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

And you've independently verified that the marketing Samsung is using for that drive match up with real-world performance?

I used a Samsung 830 Pro SSD in a Blackmagic Cinema Camera and you know what I got? Dropped frames, that's what I got.

Gary - a seemingly good point but the 840 Pro is a completely different drive and architecture to the 830Pro.

Whether an SSD will work at sustained data rates comes down to a number of factors -its true uncompressible data rate which is never really stated in the specs, whether it use multi-level (slowest), dual level or single level (fastest) NAND and perhaps more important than anything - the controller chip.
But as Dan rightly points out - CD's drives actually work with the 7Q - I'm convinced and the price isn't too bad.

Of course the long term point is - can they remain competitive enough with proprietary drives over a period of time. I guess that comes down to comparing them with other solutions and they are at the moment the cheapest.

I expect they will have to introduce new models as improvements are made and the current tech becomes unavailable or too expensive.

[Cliff Totten]

Easy and simple solution;

CD unlocks the Odyssey firmware and allows any drive to be used.

Provide onscreen warning message that states that only CD drives are supported and any other drive is "use at your own risk."

Let the buyer take his own chances and make his own choices.

Everybody wins!

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Cliff,

We are trying hard to find a solution to this dilemma.

We want our Odyssey7Q to be flawless.

Some of our potential customers want to use any SSD.

When a shoot goes bad, and the cause of the problem, was that unsupported SSD's were used,
many can be left with the impression that the Odyssey7 or Odyssey7Q was to blame.

While there will be some on-set that may or may not know that unsupported SSD's were used,
many others both on and off the set will only know and remember that there was a problem with our Odyssey7 or Odyssey7Q.

This is not just a suspicion on our part, this occurred many times when unsupported media were used in our nanoFlashes.

I do hope everyone understands that we are actively attempting to find a solution.

Respectfully,

[Dan Keaton]

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Gary - a seemingly good point but the 840 Pro is a completely different drive and architecture to the 830Pro.

Whether an SSD will work at sustained data rates comes down to a number of factors -its true uncompressible data rate which is never really stated in the specs, whether it use multi-level (slowest), dual level or single level (fastest) NAND and perhaps more important than anything - the controller chip.
But as Dan rightly points out - CD's drives actually work with the 7Q - I'm convinced and the price isn't too bad.

Of course the long term point is - can they remain competitive enough with proprietary drives over a period of time. I guess that comes down to comparing them with other solutions and they are at the moment the cheapest.

I expect they will have to introduce new models as improvements are made and the current tech becomes unavailable or too expensive.

Dear John,

As you may know, we reduced the price of our SSD's when we obtained a better price on them.

Just yesterday we were again negotiating for a better price.

Thank you for your support.

Respectfully,

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Provide onscreen warning message that states that only CD drives are supported and any other drive is "use at your own risk." Let the buyer take his own chances and make his own choices.

Apparently, you are woefully unaware how this doesn't stop anyone from blaming CD when their knockoff SSD they bought for cheap off eBay crashes and burns.

[John Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Apparently, you are woefully unaware how this doesn't stop anyone from blaming CD when their knockoff SSD they bought for cheap off eBay crashes and burns.

Gary - I don't disagree with you, I think Dan has made his point and but please remember others are entitled to their opinion. That's what this forum is about.

Cliff - I don't think CD is going to change their position and really they are under no commercial pressure to do so (given they will be the cheapest solution on the market by far). I've already said after Dan's first excellent and comprehensive reply that I'm convinced. I don't see any reason to flog a dead horse.

[Chris Hurd]

Thread title changed per request of OP.

[Cliff Totten]

CD is not in an unusual position concerning the use of their products in tandem with other companies products. It happens in many industries. Look at the entire computer industry! (I have never blamed my Dell computer for my bad USB Seagate hard drive)

Closer to home, look at Sony XDCAM. Sony allows the use of any SD card in place of true Sony SxS cards. They simply state that SD cards can be used "in case of emergency". (I have been using fast Sandisk cards for years with no troubles at all.)

Ford wants us to use authentic MotorCraft alternators, batteries and brake pads in their cars but certainly does not block you from using something else that is not approved by Ford. Would you buy any car that restricted you like that?

Every camera company wants you to buy their CF/SD cards. However, non of them "block" you from using Sandisk or Lexar media. (that would seriously hurt camera sales...look at Sony's "Memory Stick" socket complaints of the past. That forced them to open up on SD media)

Obviously this issue is a marketing gamble that CD has decided to make. There is a competing product that comes from an Australian company that goes as far as allowing spinning disk drives in their recorder. (if you decide to take that chance)

I can assure anybody that this Australian company is VERY happy that CD is "forcing" it's high priced (and yes,..excellent quality) drives on their customers. In fact, the very last thing CD's competition wants is for CD to change their policy on this.

Again, I'd be happy if CD placed a small "blinking" message under the red record graphic that says;

"WARNING - UNSUPPORTED SATA DRIVE"

I think that would send a nagging message to any user (and any set guy or producer looking on) that they are taking a risk with their recordings.

In the end, my single opinion means very little. True market forces will eventually prevail. Maybe CD will be rewarded for this aggressive strategy or maybe they will be forced to amend it in time.

One thing is certain...again, the competition is very happy with CD's strict policy right now.

CT

Edit: Many of us plan to use a recorder simultaneously with our cameras on-board codec. So, for instance, I shoot XDCAM along with DNxHD (outboard). This means that a catastrophic HD failure on my outboard recorder would never be the end of my world. I would simply revert down to my XDCAM files. I suspect you would have many customers that will simply do the same.

Could you allow DNxHD to record to any media and lock the other formats to only CD cards? Is that a new idea? DNxHD and the "other popular .mov" codec are NOT hard to write to anymore by today's HD standards. (RAW is a whole 'nuther story!)

[Dave Sperling]

Just adding 2 more cents to the discussion...

Wondering about the power draw / cooling aspect of potentially using off-the-shelf ssd's... Would an ssd that uses 50% more power also generate 50% more heat? or even 20% more?... and if so, could this pose a potential problem for both the ssd itself and for the rest of the components if the Odyssey is built to only dissipate a limited amount of heat (based on the power specs for their drives)? One of the things that I like about the NanoFlash and Gemini is their small, lightweight design - highly power efficient without the need for large batteries or cooling fans. I truly dread every time I have to go handheld with onboard PIX recorders because of their additional weight - not just the unit itself, but the weight and bulk of the additional batteries since I'm too nervous about the Pix power draw to run it simultaneously from an onboard camera battery. I'm guessing that part of keeping the Odyssey to a manageable size and weight is not having to go overboard with cooling systems. My vote is for small and light and less power used, whatever that takes...

[Garrett Low]

Cliff Totten, requiring the use of proprietary REDMAGs doesn't seem to have stopped people from buying the RED Scarlet. I think there are several factors that have gone into CD's decision. I know plenty of EX1/EX3 owners who used SD cards and when they got errors blamed the camera. After a little education they figured that certain cards were not capable of being used but despite all of the warnings and disclaimers it didn't stop them from first blaming the camera. Sony is a large corporation that can handle some bad press however misinformed it may be. CD is not on that scale and it could be very damaging if people started to blame their product for errors that were actually the fault of the user for choosing to use non compliant media. It isn't a marketing gamble it is called risk management and I cannot fault them for taking this strategy.

As far as how it would be perceived if a clients shoot were ruined because of faulty media, I have not once heard of a client asking what media was being used when there is a technical error. They don't care, they just know that you were using X camera capturing to Y recorder and it failed. That's how certain equipment gets a reputation for being unreliable and thus not wanted to be used on commercial shoots.

That Australian competitor you speak of has gained that reputation with some of the clients I've dealt with. So your example, at least in the market I'm in, actually doesn't support allowing the use of any media.