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Old March 2nd, 2014, 09:55 PM   #1
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High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Enjoying the new 7Q and eagerly awaiting the firmware update.

Having said that, one of the things most interesting for some of us FS700 users is the "end trigger". We film something in perpetuity till something happens, then hit record, previous 8 seconds are captured at 240 fps as an example.

Let's say the subject is moving, and we are panning the camera and after following the subject, we hit record after having set "end trigger" and at the end of the slow tripod pan. All is good for the 8 seconds.

Now how would "end trigger" work with the 7Q? Lets say I wanted longer than 8 seconds at 240 fps. The FS700 can't do it internally, but how would that all work if I wanted say 20 seconds of "end trigger" recording with the 7Q? I can imagine filming at 240 frames per second on the stern of a boat off South Africa, waiting for a great white to leap clear out of the water after hitting a towed seal dummy, then hit the end trigger, and hope to capture the PREVIOUS footage, but I don't know how that would work on the 7Q.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 03:44 AM   #2
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

As I understand it, the O7Q does continuous 2K HFR but it does not buffer record, so no start or end triggers. Just start recording and stop when you're happy (or the SSDs fill up).

Or do you mean 4k?
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 05:10 AM   #3
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Dear Friends,

I will check with our engineers to determine if we could find a solution to your requests.

Respectfully,
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 05:25 AM   #4
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

I did read somewhere that you can achieve 4K 120 fps burst mode - or did I dream that? I read info from so many sources, it's difficult to remember what I heard where!

I think the O7Q will record the SDI playback when the FS700 internal buffer is writing out??? possibly at 60fps?

Can you put me straight on that Dan - and where that feature is on the roadmap?

Cheers,

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Old March 3rd, 2014, 01:58 PM   #5
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Come to think of it, if it is a matter of programming, I can imagine how slick it would be if one could predefine via screen touch controls a virtual buffer. One toggles the length of time of the buffer, then like the internal buffer of the FS700, the 7Q records to a buffer at the specified frame rate, but if one does not hit the trigger, it dumps out out of the virtual buffer and starts anew like the FS700 does.

This end trigger feature is quite a powerful tool for wildlife and action film makers.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 04:04 AM   #6
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Really, now we have 4k and burst mode for 4 seconds, but do we have end trigger option for that 4k RAW ?
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 07:23 AM   #7
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Dear Friends,

As of today, and with our latest firmware, we do not yet support the FS700 4K at 120 Frames per second mode, which is written to a cache.

We have to specifically program our firmware to support this mode.

This will come in a future firmware release, for free, of course.


4K at 120 frames per second is a lot of data. Even a very large memory buffer can only handle a few seconds.

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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:01 PM   #8
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Obviously, this is a very old thread by now, but Dave Allen's question remains just as valid today as it was in 2014.

And, Dan Keaton's answer: "4K at 120 frames per second is a lot of data. Even a very large memory buffer can only handle a few seconds." is not completely satisfying.

It doesn't quite matter how few seconds of data can be stored in a buffer for End Trigger initiation of recording....the things is, one needs End Trigger to begin capture of spontaneous (i.e., unpredictable) events.

Then, after the buffered data is recorded to SSD, one needs to keep right on recording the event at high frame rates, e.g., 240 fps, until the event is over.

The FS700 camera itself just gives you the 8 real-time seconds of 240fps data that it holds in its buffer. An expensive external recorder like Odyssey 7q+ should absolutely be able to record from a buffer and then keep right on recording...it's not that hard.

Even the old Casio Exilim FX1 could do that at 300 fps (albeit at sub-SD resolution). But, heck, that old Casio sold for $1000.

By the way, it does look as if the Atomos Inferno can now do this--their most current firmware allows for continuous 2K RAW recording at 240fps, and the Inferno has a Pre Roll recording function (i.e., Aussie-speak for "End Trigger").
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:55 PM   #9
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Flippin View Post
Obviously, this is a very old thread by now, but Dave Allen's question remains just as valid today as it was in 2014.

And, Dan Keaton's answer: "4K at 120 frames per second is a lot of data. Even a very large memory buffer can only handle a few seconds." is not completely satisfying.

It doesn't quite matter how few seconds of data can be stored in a buffer for End Trigger initiation of recording....the things is, one needs End Trigger to begin capture of spontaneous (i.e., unpredictable) events.

Then, after the buffered data is recorded to SSD, one needs to keep right on recording the event at high frame rates, e.g., 240 fps, until the event is over.

The FS700 camera itself just gives you the 8 real-time seconds of 240fps data that it holds in its buffer. An expensive external recorder like Odyssey 7q+ should absolutely be able to record from a buffer and then keep right on recording...it's not that hard.

Even the old Casio Exilim FX1 could do that at 300 fps (albeit at sub-SD resolution). But, heck, that old Casio sold for $1000.

By the way, it does look as if the Atomos Inferno can now do this--their most current firmware allows for continuous 2K RAW recording at 240fps, and the Inferno has a Pre Roll recording function (i.e., Aussie-speak for "End Trigger").
Dear Lee,

If your FS700 is one that supports Raw Recording, then it also support 4K Super Slow Mo mode, where it can use an internal buffer and record 4K at 120 fps, supporting an End Trigger mode.

And the Odyssey7Q / Odyssey7Q+, with our Raw Bundle supports recording in this mode.

Thus, we do support 4K 120 fps.

Note the camera buffers 3.63 seconds of the 4K at 120 fps images.

The FS700 camera is not capable of supporting over 3.63 second in this mode, as once you press the Record Button, and you have it setup for End Trigger, the last 3.63 seconds of footage is sent out via HD-SDI in 4K Raw to our Odyssey7Q or Odyssey7Q+.

We can't continue to record 4K at 120fps in this mode, since the camera stops filling the buffer while it is sending us the frames that it has already captured.


But, we can record 2K at 240 fps continuously or 4K at 60 fps continuously, as the camera is capable of supporting these modes in 2K Raw and 4K Raw, and we are capable to recording these as Raw or Apple ProRes.

Please feel free to call me.

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Respectfully,
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Old February 24th, 2017, 01:22 PM   #10
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Hi Dan,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I may not be re-articulating Dave Allen's central, important question properly--I think I understand exactly what he wanted to know, and I want the same thing...but it may not be clear to others who don't try to record spontaneous events at high frame rates.

In a nutshell, my primary (and almost only) interest is to use the FS700 at 240fps to capture spontaneous events in sports and nature. For that, the End Trigger function (which the camera already has for internal recording) is indispensable. However, after writing the small amount of buffered data to video file, the FS700 is done....that's all you get.

Unfortunately, sports and nature events don't usually cooperate with the buffer limitations on the FS700. To illustrate, say a batter in a baseball game is the subject. If he does something really rare and interesting, like hit a game-winning home run, I want to capture that at 240 fps. If he takes 5 pitches and strikes out looking, I don't want any of that. So, End Trigger is crucial...I can wait and wait and wait, and finaly a batter does something really interesting--and I can capture the buffered data at the very beginning of this interesting event. But...the FS700 does not keep on recording continuously at 240 fps after its buffered data has been captured. So, as the game hero is rounding 1st base, rounding 2nd base, exchanging high-fives with the 3rd base coach, and crossing home-plate where he is mobbed by his happy teammates....I can't get any of that with the FS700 alone.

What I need from an external recorder that can handle the 2K RAW signal from an FS700 is exactly this: The ability to use End Trigger to start the external recording (no matter how short of a buffer, it will be enough...even a couple of seconds is plenty of time to recognize that something important has happened, if I am paying attention). Then, after the data in the buffer has been recorded to video file, I need for the recorder to keep right on recording (uninterrupted) at 240 fps for maybe another minute or maybe even two minutes. I know that's a lot of data, excruciating in unedited playback, but most of it will be discarded during post-editing. What is crucially important is: Gotta get the beginning of the event (w/ End Trigger) and gotta be able to see the event through to its completion, even if the whole event is a couple of minutes long in real-time.
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Old February 24th, 2017, 04:33 PM   #11
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Dear Lee,

I really understand what you would like to do.

Here are some considerations.

To be clear, in the FS700 2K 240 fps mode, there is no internal buffer available in the FS700,
so we would have to do this ourselves, in the buffer that we have in the Odyssey.

For 4K Raw, one frame of video is approximately 12.8 Megabytes,
while 2K Raw is around 3.2 Megabytes.

For 2K Apple ProRes 422 HQ, one second of video at 240 fps is around 330 Megabytes.

I assume that you would want to record in Apple ProRes 422 as opposed to recording in Raw.

Our buffer for handling a pre-record buffer is 256 Megabytes.

Thus, recording in Apple ProRes 422 HQ, our prerecord buffer would provide around 3/4 of a second of video.

(In 2K Raw at 240 fps, the prerecord buffer would be approximately .43 seconds.)

I am only attempting to point out that there are serious technical challenges to accomplish your request.

We actual have some other ideas how we may accomplish your request, but I can't promise anything at this time.

Respectfully,
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Old February 24th, 2017, 07:04 PM   #12
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Flippin View Post
What I need from an external recorder that can handle the 2K RAW signal from an FS700 is exactly this: The ability to use End Trigger to start the external recording (no matter how short of a buffer, it will be enough...even a couple of seconds is plenty of time to recognize that something important has happened, if I am paying attention). Then, after the data in the buffer has been recorded to video file, I need for the recorder to keep right on recording (uninterrupted) at 240 fps for maybe another minute or maybe even two minutes. I know that's a lot of data, excruciating in unedited playback, but most of it will be discarded during post-editing. What is crucially important is: Gotta get the beginning of the event (w/ End Trigger) and gotta be able to see the event through to its completion, even if the whole event is a couple of minutes long in real-time.
I don't see the problem here. The Odyssey will record 2k @ 240fps continuously until your media runs out. If you want to run for 2 minutes.. No problem. Record for 2 minutes. As long as you have lots of drive space you can record as long as you like at high frame rates.
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Old February 24th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #13
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Check out the record times here - https://www.convergent-design.com/kb...=kb&kbartid=15

With a 1TB drive you can record at least 60 minutes @ 240fps compressed as ProRes HQ.
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Old February 24th, 2017, 08:23 PM   #14
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

Thanks, Dan, I appreciate your thoughtful and thorough answer.

Hi Chris, I understand that the Odyssey 7Q+ will record 2K RAW @ 240 fps continuously until the available storage space runs out. That was never a question in my mind, at least ever since the CD firmware update came out that allowed this function. However, the key issue here is, End Trigger is also crucial for what I do...I know my posts on this subject are a little bit lengthy and maybe tedious; however, if you think about my baseball scenario you can see why End Trigger is indispensable: Events that are really worth capturing are unpredictable and somewhat rare...I cannot simply record 2K RAW @ 240 fps until something good happens. That will absolutely not work out. Or, think of the same problem with trying to record a few significant events from a soccer match.
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Old February 24th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #15
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Re: High Frame Rate and End Triggers?

It sounds like you'll have to look elsewhere for a solution since the hardware in the FS700 nor the hardware in the Odyssey will support your needs.
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