it's really over! HD-DVD sayonara!

Craig Seeman · February 18th, 2008, 12:37 PM

As somebody who does production/postproduction I've been thinking how to demo my work with my Samsung 46" 1080P monitor.

Given I can burn HD DVD to DVD-R with Apple DVDStudioPro, I might be able to pick up a Toshiba HD DVD player for VERY CHEAP and use it for just such purpose. Very cheap = $50 or less.

Realistically who's going to be running down to BestBuy to buy one now. They're going to have to dump them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Stoneburner

I'm disappointed because I got an HD-DVD player for Christmas. Had I not already shipped the UPC code in for the free movies, I would have taken it back when Warner Brothers announced their defection. I'm happy with the player and for $150, I'm not complaining, I'm just sad that I won't have any content soon enough. I'm going to hold off buying until the prices are down below $200 for a full spec player.

Aaron Lucas · February 18th, 2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Renting

Slightly off-topic, but curious; Now that Microsoft is probably also switching to Blu-ray:

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Console/J7L7H2R4

And Toshiba indicating it will drop HD-DVD (which pushed it's stock btw):

http://www.reuters.com/article/techn...080217?sp=true

What will happen with the HD-DVD pledged studio's?

mate, just quietly Smarthouse isn't very well respected in Australia and they have a reputation for making things up.

That said, I'm sure Microsoft have said in the past that they are always prepared to back a winner when it comes to HD formats.

Paulo Teixeira · February 18th, 2008, 02:12 PM

I don’t know if I could see Microsoft benefiting that much if they release a Blu-Ray attachment for the X-BOX 360, although the BDA would.

http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archi...18/557448.aspx

Dave Ferdinand · February 18th, 2008, 05:37 PM

I sure hope that people aren't stupid enough to not realising the any HD format is just a transition from any laser discs to online distribution - this is the only real way of the future.

The 360 already has a movie rental service and hopefully in the future you'll be able to plug your digital box to any movie online distributer that will not only rent but sell movies, which means no trips down the shop, no massive plastic box collections, etc. Now this will be something.

HD laser discs are just an excuse to rip-off consumers into re-buying their whole collection on HD, give me a break. I have over 150 DVDs, that would be $3000 to upgrade everything to Blu-ray/HDDVD, right.

If they any of the two formats had come instantly with a burner that would be something else, but as it was it's a waste of money.

Pete Bauer · February 18th, 2008, 06:35 PM

Well Dave, after following this thread since inception as a moderator with no intention of posting, your harshly worded opinion hit enough of a nerve to warrant comment. I won't say it is "wrong" but I will say it is rather a "soda straw view." If a Blu Ray player is a waste of money for you, great, don't buy one...in which case, who exactly is ripping you off by offering a better technology? Nobody. I'll bet new titles will still come out on DVD for a number of years yet. Not even corporate giant Sony is going to make you replace your DVDs with Blu Ray discs. Play your 150 DVDs and enjoy them for years to come.

I, too, eagerly await the day when the infrastructure exists widely enough and economically enough to make download a primary means of HD content purchase. But as others have already posted about, that's most likely a number of years off yet and at least for now a bit uncertain as bandwidth throttling etc gets sorted out.

I'll bore you with my personal take. I guess that from at least the time I got an 8-track player for Christmas so many years ago, I had a realization that any given format wouldn't last for ever. Nowadays, not counting the kiddo's videos, we own maybe 15-20 DVDs of some of our favorites. Otherwise we rent DVDs if we're having a movie night. My wife got the bug to get a Blu Ray player a while back and I wouldn't go for it until this unfortunate format war was over one way or the other. Well, guess what she got us as a Valentine's present? We'll do the same with Blu Ray as we have done with DVD...buy a few that are timeless favorites to us and then rent for movie night. Someday we'll download for movie night. I suppose I'll get around to second-handing whatever few DVD favorites we do replace; others we will still enjoy up-rezzed by the player to 1080...not as crystal clear but better than plain ol' DVD and good enough.

BTW, one of the first movies I did replace was "2001: A Space Odyssey." Did I feel ripped off when the bones went flying with stunning clarity during the early scenes just because I already have it on DVD? Heck NO! It is spectacular! Even though we are spoiled with quite a few HD channels on TV, the Blu Ray is stunning in both sight and 7.1 sound. (So would HD DVD have been spectacular, but it didn't win).

So no, the members here aren't stupid enough to fail to realize that both technology and marketing march on eternally. We each simply have our own manner of making use of them.

John Miller · February 18th, 2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Ferdinand

I sure hope that people aren't stupid enough to not realising the any HD format is just a transition from any laser discs to online distribution - this is the only real way of the future.

But that future is quite a long way away for many people. Upwards of 20GB for a movie (to be of acceptable quality) requires approx 14 hours to download on a typical 3Mbps DSL connection.

Only people living in major metropolitan areas will have a chance of coming anywhere near the bandwidth required. But even typical FIOS packages would require 3 hours or so, completely tying up your connection.

There's a lot to be said to checking a list of movies on line and have them arrive the next day as real discs so that you can pop them in the DVD player and put the computer aside for a while.

Until late last year, my only options were dial-up, ISDN or satellite. DSL finally arrived.

Dylan Couper · February 18th, 2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Ferdinand

HD laser discs are just an excuse to rip-off consumers into re-buying their whole collection on HD, give me a break. I have over 150 DVDs, that would be $3000 to upgrade everything to Blu-ray/HDDVD, right.

Quit whining and buy an upconverting DVD player for your old discs and a BluRay player for your new BDDVDs.

I wish I had that option back when I had 450 VHS tapes that I blew about $10-12,000 on back in the day... I've reformed and currently do online rentals by mail for all my DVD needs. Works out to about $2 per viewing, which is a much better deal than $25 for a DVD that I'll watch at most twice.

Dave Ferdinand · February 18th, 2008, 08:02 PM

Quit whining?? You quit whining about replacing your VHS tapes.

I already have an upconverting DVD player and am very happy with it - another reason not to waste money on HD.

Just checked VUDU.COM and it's the way of the future. Splash all your money on Blu-ray stuff for all I care, you seem to enjoy getting ripped off.

Mel Enriquez · February 18th, 2008, 08:32 PM

Dave's comment is a bit too harsh, imo. Nobody is forcing anybody. I remember, about 3 years ago, we had a client from mainland china who got married in our country. When I finished the DVD, they asked if I could make a VCD version! Well, 99% of our players come from mainland China! And it's not that the DVD players are out of their reach or not available. They just used their VCD and didn't care for DVD!

Last year, the sister of the bride got married and we shot their wedding too, and they didn't ask for a vcd copy at that time :-)

In short, nobody is forcing anyone to shift. You can even still use cd-r or VCD if you want. The standard is still there. In our country, VCD discs are still available and these are legal copies. Nobody buys them though, because if they took Dave's position, it is obvious that the vast majority don't think they are being ripped off by the newer technology.

"Ripped off" is a personal thing and you can't apply it to everybody. Are people in our country excited about BD? Well, most don't even know there are 2 standards. One thing is for sure, local distributors and vendors here are smart enough not to jump early. Nobody, AFAIK, is pushing either. Well, maybe in 2-3 months, since the war is over, we'll start the push for BD players.

"Ripped off" is a strong word to make and to generalize to everybody, because we are in a global market. Although some tastes are similar, some can be so different. The concept of renting is not new to us here in Asia, but having a disc to play is valued more. It's not just the infrastructure, it's the sociology/psychology of having something to hold and "own." It's also the psychology/sociology of instant playback anywhere anytime. When you have children and they want to watch The Little Mermaid or Shrek for the 2,000th times, you'll understand the value of a media to have.

Finally, I think BD is still a transitory media. In fact, all these technologies are all interim and transitory. If you ask me, the rise of the SSD and cheap SD cards, are already forebodings of what might be 5-10 years from now. Think of a 100gb 300x SD card for U$5-10 vs the bulky 5.25" disc. But of course, it takes more than technological superiority for a standard to become mainstream. So, I won't rack my brains forecasting 5 years up. I'd go along with BD till the next wave comes along and we start all over again.

What is more or less certain is that, except for tapes, the disc players seem to be all backward compatible. This means, nobody is forcing you to switch as you can play your older discs with the newer players.

Now, I hope the mini-dv tapes are also future proofed by newer cameras so they can still be read or at least that format or casing is still used in the future. As far as archival goes, I still have lots of confidence and respect with tapes. BD discs still have to prove their archival reliability. It's just a pain havint to transfer things to tape as you do a 1:1 work to get them there.

Of course, archival issues are another matter. If we limit ourselves to movies how they are presented or viewed, well, BD is here to stay. You like them or you don't, but I'm sure that Dave's position isn't shared by majority of the world. Marketing hype or not, it's the consumers who will vote with their wallets or cards and no amount of bashing is going to change that.

Chris Hurd · February 18th, 2008, 08:41 PM

Okay, easy does it folks -- let's cool off please -- thanks in advance,

Mel Enriquez · February 18th, 2008, 11:16 PM

Sorry about that Chris. I was speaking matter of factly. The tone is normal, not excited, not angry or offended, nor combative. Too bad people can't hear me with typed words :-)

In any case, I hope Sony, et al can finish the menuing and get the authoring softwares/standard with BD ready in 6 months or less. Aside from waiting for the BD players price to go down, we wedding shooters or even serious amateurs want to have the ability to make those menus that we do in DVD. I hear there are some improvements and additions with the new standard.

In our country, BD will take a bit of time to take hold maybe compared to the USA. Too many variables in the value chain still not in place. It's not just the players, or the availability of titles, w/c I am sure will follow suit quite easily. There are already some titles, but the momentum isn't there. I think, in our country at least, there is still the hurdle of getting those HD tvs or monitors aside from the player issue. I think, it will be past 2nd half of 2009 if there are any momentum we can have as far as the high def TVs or monitors aren't that affordable yet for many. There are U$200 19" LCDs with HDMI but they are not TV so that's the problem right there. HDV tvs are about 2.5-3x as expensive and that is a big issue right there. I think it has something to do with taxes for TVs. I'm sure the tuner itself isn't that expensive. I have a USB tv tuner for my notebook w/c I paid U$40 only. Non-USB are in the U$25-30 range. So, a U$400-500 19" LCD TV is too expensive with only the tuner that is added considering the LCD as a monitor costs only U$200.

Heath McKnight · February 18th, 2008, 11:17 PM

Toshiba is having a press conference at 5 PM Japan time (3 AM EST 2-19-08); it's expected that HD DVD support will end.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh..._Expected/1479

heath

Jon Fairhurst · February 18th, 2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel Enriquez

HDV tvs are about 2.5-3x as expensive and that is a big issue right there. I think it has something to do with taxes for TVs.

LCD TVs have different backlights than monitors to provide brighter pictures. They also have different panels than monitors for wider viewing angles. Dead pixels are not tolerated, so the yield is lower. It's more than just the tuner. And yes, taxes might enter into the equation as well.

Back on topic, when Warner made their announcement, I was pretty sure BD had won, but I'm still amazed at how quickly the dominoes fell.

Pedanes Bol · February 19th, 2008, 12:22 AM

Toshiba to announce HD DVD pullout on Tuesday: report

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080218/...hiba_nand_dc_1

Steve Connor · February 19th, 2008, 02:56 AM

It's officially over, Toshiba have formally announced it!

February 18th, 2008, 02:12 PM	#48
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	I don’t know if I could see Microsoft benefiting that much if they release a Blu-Ray attachment for the X-BOX 360, although the BDA would. http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archi...18/557448.aspx __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot Last edited by Paulo Teixeira; February 18th, 2008 at 05:09 PM.

February 18th, 2008, 05:37 PM	#49
Dave Ferdinand Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 359	I sure hope that people aren't stupid enough to not realising the any HD format is just a transition from any laser discs to online distribution - this is the only real way of the future. The 360 already has a movie rental service and hopefully in the future you'll be able to plug your digital box to any movie online distributer that will not only rent but sell movies, which means no trips down the shop, no massive plastic box collections, etc. Now this will be something. HD laser discs are just an excuse to rip-off consumers into re-buying their whole collection on HD, give me a break. I have over 150 DVDs, that would be $3000 to upgrade everything to Blu-ray/HDDVD, right. If they any of the two formats had come instantly with a burner that would be something else, but as it was it's a waste of money. __________________ Do or do not, there is no try.

February 18th, 2008, 06:35 PM	#50
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Well Dave, after following this thread since inception as a moderator with no intention of posting, your harshly worded opinion hit enough of a nerve to warrant comment. I won't say it is "wrong" but I will say it is rather a "soda straw view." If a Blu Ray player is a waste of money for you, great, don't buy one...in which case, who exactly is ripping you off by offering a better technology? Nobody. I'll bet new titles will still come out on DVD for a number of years yet. Not even corporate giant Sony is going to make you replace your DVDs with Blu Ray discs. Play your 150 DVDs and enjoy them for years to come. I, too, eagerly await the day when the infrastructure exists widely enough and economically enough to make download a primary means of HD content purchase. But as others have already posted about, that's most likely a number of years off yet and at least for now a bit uncertain as bandwidth throttling etc gets sorted out. I'll bore you with my personal take. I guess that from at least the time I got an 8-track player for Christmas so many years ago, I had a realization that any given format wouldn't last for ever. Nowadays, not counting the kiddo's videos, we own maybe 15-20 DVDs of some of our favorites. Otherwise we rent DVDs if we're having a movie night. My wife got the bug to get a Blu Ray player a while back and I wouldn't go for it until this unfortunate format war was over one way or the other. Well, guess what she got us as a Valentine's present? We'll do the same with Blu Ray as we have done with DVD...buy a few that are timeless favorites to us and then rent for movie night. Someday we'll download for movie night. I suppose I'll get around to second-handing whatever few DVD favorites we do replace; others we will still enjoy up-rezzed by the player to 1080...not as crystal clear but better than plain ol' DVD and good enough. BTW, one of the first movies I did replace was "2001: A Space Odyssey." Did I feel ripped off when the bones went flying with stunning clarity during the early scenes just because I already have it on DVD? Heck NO! It is spectacular! Even though we are spoiled with quite a few HD channels on TV, the Blu Ray is stunning in both sight and 7.1 sound. (So would HD DVD have been spectacular, but it didn't win). So no, the members here aren't stupid enough to fail to realize that both technology and marketing march on eternally. We each simply have our own manner of making use of them. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 18th, 2008, 08:02 PM	#53
Dave Ferdinand Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 359	Quit whining?? You quit whining about replacing your VHS tapes. I already have an upconverting DVD player and am very happy with it - another reason not to waste money on HD. Just checked VUDU.COM and it's the way of the future. Splash all your money on Blu-ray stuff for all I care, you seem to enjoy getting ripped off. __________________ Do or do not, there is no try.

February 18th, 2008, 08:32 PM	#54
Mel Enriquez Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 129	the ideal format Dave's comment is a bit too harsh, imo. Nobody is forcing anybody. I remember, about 3 years ago, we had a client from mainland china who got married in our country. When I finished the DVD, they asked if I could make a VCD version! Well, 99% of our players come from mainland China! And it's not that the DVD players are out of their reach or not available. They just used their VCD and didn't care for DVD! Last year, the sister of the bride got married and we shot their wedding too, and they didn't ask for a vcd copy at that time :-) In short, nobody is forcing anyone to shift. You can even still use cd-r or VCD if you want. The standard is still there. In our country, VCD discs are still available and these are legal copies. Nobody buys them though, because if they took Dave's position, it is obvious that the vast majority don't think they are being ripped off by the newer technology. "Ripped off" is a personal thing and you can't apply it to everybody. Are people in our country excited about BD? Well, most don't even know there are 2 standards. One thing is for sure, local distributors and vendors here are smart enough not to jump early. Nobody, AFAIK, is pushing either. Well, maybe in 2-3 months, since the war is over, we'll start the push for BD players. "Ripped off" is a strong word to make and to generalize to everybody, because we are in a global market. Although some tastes are similar, some can be so different. The concept of renting is not new to us here in Asia, but having a disc to play is valued more. It's not just the infrastructure, it's the sociology/psychology of having something to hold and "own." It's also the psychology/sociology of instant playback anywhere anytime. When you have children and they want to watch The Little Mermaid or Shrek for the 2,000th times, you'll understand the value of a media to have. Finally, I think BD is still a transitory media. In fact, all these technologies are all interim and transitory. If you ask me, the rise of the SSD and cheap SD cards, are already forebodings of what might be 5-10 years from now. Think of a 100gb 300x SD card for U$5-10 vs the bulky 5.25" disc. But of course, it takes more than technological superiority for a standard to become mainstream. So, I won't rack my brains forecasting 5 years up. I'd go along with BD till the next wave comes along and we start all over again. What is more or less certain is that, except for tapes, the disc players seem to be all backward compatible. This means, nobody is forcing you to switch as you can play your older discs with the newer players. Now, I hope the mini-dv tapes are also future proofed by newer cameras so they can still be read or at least that format or casing is still used in the future. As far as archival goes, I still have lots of confidence and respect with tapes. BD discs still have to prove their archival reliability. It's just a pain havint to transfer things to tape as you do a 1:1 work to get them there. Of course, archival issues are another matter. If we limit ourselves to movies how they are presented or viewed, well, BD is here to stay. You like them or you don't, but I'm sure that Dave's position isn't shared by majority of the world. Marketing hype or not, it's the consumers who will vote with their wallets or cards and no amount of bashing is going to change that.

February 18th, 2008, 08:41 PM	#55
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Okay, easy does it folks -- let's cool off please -- thanks in advance, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 18th, 2008, 11:16 PM	#56
Mel Enriquez Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 129	BD and DVD Sorry about that Chris. I was speaking matter of factly. The tone is normal, not excited, not angry or offended, nor combative. Too bad people can't hear me with typed words :-) In any case, I hope Sony, et al can finish the menuing and get the authoring softwares/standard with BD ready in 6 months or less. Aside from waiting for the BD players price to go down, we wedding shooters or even serious amateurs want to have the ability to make those menus that we do in DVD. I hear there are some improvements and additions with the new standard. In our country, BD will take a bit of time to take hold maybe compared to the USA. Too many variables in the value chain still not in place. It's not just the players, or the availability of titles, w/c I am sure will follow suit quite easily. There are already some titles, but the momentum isn't there. I think, in our country at least, there is still the hurdle of getting those HD tvs or monitors aside from the player issue. I think, it will be past 2nd half of 2009 if there are any momentum we can have as far as the high def TVs or monitors aren't that affordable yet for many. There are U$200 19" LCDs with HDMI but they are not TV so that's the problem right there. HDV tvs are about 2.5-3x as expensive and that is a big issue right there. I think it has something to do with taxes for TVs. I'm sure the tuner itself isn't that expensive. I have a USB tv tuner for my notebook w/c I paid U$40 only. Non-USB are in the U$25-30 range. So, a U$400-500 19" LCD TV is too expensive with only the tuner that is added considering the LCD as a monitor costs only U$200.

February 18th, 2008, 11:17 PM	#57
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Toshiba is having a press conference at 5 PM Japan time (3 AM EST 2-19-08); it's expected that HD DVD support will end. http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh..._Expected/1479 heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 19th, 2008, 12:22 AM	#59
Pedanes Bol Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Boston MA Posts: 167	Toshiba to announce HD DVD pullout on Tuesday: report http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080218/...hiba_nand_dc_1

February 19th, 2008, 02:56 AM	#60
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	It's officially over, Toshiba have formally announced it!