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Old January 18th, 2009, 09:38 PM   #1
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sdxc (2tb sd card due end 2009)

Sorry if a discussion about this has already taken place here.

SDXC expands SD into Terabyte territory: Digital Photography Review
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Old January 19th, 2009, 03:03 AM   #2
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The 2TB are just the new possible maximum of this proposed standard. So no 2TB cards in the near future...
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Old January 19th, 2009, 08:03 AM   #3
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A more realistic expectation is the 64GB card hopefully out by Christmas, possibly earlier.

Nevertheless, it is exciting news! Basically this is the death certificate of tapes, hard discs, and CD/DVD discs. Just think - no more moving parts... I am sure the read/write speed will also increase dramatically, to make the SDXC cards a real threat to hard drives.
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Old January 19th, 2009, 05:21 PM   #4
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Looking at the advertised I/O rates and the upgrade path, this is also spelling out the death of the proprietary/niche flash card market. Long term, not just P2, but SxS as well, will very likely get crushed. Their reason for being, performance, will be filled by a mass market product at a small fraction of the cost.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 06:10 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bill Koehler View Post
Long term, not just P2, but SxS as well, will very likely get crushed.
I'd draw a big distinction between P2 and SxS.

SxS is fundamentally not that different to such as CF,SDHC etc - it just uses very high performance memory chips, and takes advantage of the PCIExpress interface. I don't believe there is any fundamental reason why you couldn't produce an SxS format card for much extra cost to a CF one of comparable performance.

The advantage it would have over CF or SDHC is a more robust physical form, and I have heard doubts expressed about SDHC that for high end use they are just too small, too easily lost. Broadcasters would pay a premium just to have the more rugged form factor.

P2 is different. When it was first starting to be developed, there was no way normal memory of the time was at all likely to be up to the job in conventional form, so they had to develop techniques such as raiding four cards, and selecting and matching cards to suit. It was clever at the time, but rapidly became unnecessary, and has saddled P2 with a high fixed cost per card before you even start to think about the memory itself.

Could they just bring out "P2 MkII"? Trouble for Panasonic is that such a thing is effectively SxS! High performance rugged memory that slots directly into the PCMCIA slot of a laptop, the IT industry having now migrated from Cardbus to ExpressCard for new products. A MkII COULD be developed still based on Cardbus, but I'm not sure it would be sensible to try and launch a new product, when competitors could simply cry "new? But it's built on obsolescent technology!"
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Old January 20th, 2009, 08:53 AM   #6
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If I'm not mistaken, SxS requires two memory cards in a RAID configuration to achieve the peak bandwidth of 100 MB/sec, similar to how P2 uses four cards in RAID to achieve high bandwidth. As discussed in another thread, it will be interesting to see whether SDXC leads to development of cameras with recording data rates of 35-50+ Mbps on inexpensive memory, which would be a handy combination of features. My apologies to all for making it sound like a conspiracy that we haven't seen such a camera already...hopefully soon.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 09:29 AM   #7
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If I'm not mistaken, SxS requires two memory cards in a RAID configuration to achieve the peak bandwidth of 100 MB/sec, similar to how P2 uses four cards in RAID to achieve high bandwidth.
Ah - but I think there is a big difference. SxS Pro cards may have a RAID to get up to the high speeds, but it isn't necessary for basic lower performance card operation - hence the ability of being able to record to simple SDHC cards with a simple adaptor. I don't believe there is a fundamental technical reason why you shouldn't get what I suggested earlier - "an SxS format card for much extra cost to a CF one of comparable performance."

I don't believe the same is true for P2 - you couldn't pull the same trick with SDHC or CF cards and a Cardbus adaptor - because such would be missing some vital circuitry that is only present within a true P2 card.

I think we'll increasingly see SDHC and CF cards used at the prosumer end, but higher end cameras natively using SxS , P2 or something like the Ikegami GFCAM uses. The great boon of SxS is that you can use either a "real" card or SDHC with an adaptor, so I tend to see P2 as being at an increasing disadvantage.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 10:00 AM   #8
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I'd draw a big distinction between P2 and SxS.
Maybe.

Here's the things that will go against SxS.

1. Even now I not infrequently read about people sticking adapters with SDHC cards into the Sony EX1 & EX3. Why? Difference in cost. The major current issue with using SDHC there at this point appears to be overcranking. Given that the new SDXC cards promise to deliver a ton more throughput than the old SDHC cards that would seem to be problem solved, so...what again is the need for that high dollar memory?

2. SDXC will be substantially lower cost precisely because it is a high volume mass market product. Consequently, you will be able to purchase it almost anywhere. You won't have to special order it or get it ONLY at the professional video store. Global convenience of purchase has a way of being a powerful attractor. Think, I'm on the road and need another card.....

3. Long term, are you going to turn down the convenience of being able to use the same flash cards in either your home or pro camcorder?

4. The speed of the consumer flash cards is ramping up...so the speed of acquisition advantage of SxS is narrowing.

5. Even assuming that speed advantage does NOT entirely disappear, will the higher cost of SxS be worth it to you given points #1 - 4?

Somehow I knew my original post here would get attention.
I'm just a low end hobbyist. What the hey do I know.
Regardless, I stand by my opinion.

Last edited by Bill Koehler; January 20th, 2009 at 04:31 PM. Reason: Typo & Better Phrasing
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Old January 20th, 2009, 07:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Bill Koehler View Post
Here's the things that will go against SxS.

1. The major current issue with using SDHC there at this point appears to be overcranking. Given that the new SDXC cards promise to deliver a ton more throughput than the old SDHC cards that would seem to be problem solved, ........
The overcranking issue is less to do with SDHC speeds, than the adaptors "talking" to the camera too slowly via the USB interface. There's no need for SDXC to get overcrank bitrates - just an adaptor that will talk to the camera via PCIExpress.
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3. Long term, are you going to turn down the convenience of being able to use the same flash cards in either your home or pro camcorder?
For an individual you're right. For a big organistion it could be the opposite, a huge disadvantage to use the same cards as home users - an incentive to pilfer. People will be far more inclined to steal things they see an easy market for, and even more so if it's something they can use personally.
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4. The speed of the consumer flash cards is ramping up...so the speed of acquisition advantage of SxS is narrowing.
Yes, but here's where the big difference between SxS and P2 cameras comes in. ExpressCard memory could take advantage of those technology changes directly - P2 can't. The difference in use isn't solely down to size or speed either, high end users will pay a premium for robustness etc. Maybe not the premium that they currently command, but I can see an ExpressCard solution at an acceptable price point for your comparison, I can't see it happening for P2.
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Somehow I knew my original post here would get attention.
I'm just a low end hobbyist. What the hey do I know.
Regardless, I stand by my opinion.
In general I think you make some very salient and accurate points, all I would dispute is the rolling together of SxS and P2 as one. I would also draw a big distinction between them as forms of memory, and them as camera models.

Buy a P2 camera and you HAVE to use P2 memory cards, end of story.

Buy an SxS camera, and you have the OPTION of using true SxS Pro memory in it or cheap SDHC.

It's this OPTION that gives SxS cameras a massive advantage over P2 based ones in this respect, IMO.
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