Next "HD" DVD format "war" has started at DVinfo.net

Rob Lohman · November 29th, 2004, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Toshiba Corp. said Monday it has received endorsements from four major Hollywood movie studios for its next generation DVD format..... Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp. owned by News Corp. (NWS), has already decided to adopt the Blu-ray Disc standard

source: http://www.investors.com/breakingnew...24171499&brk=1

This is not going into the right direction (as most people have
already warned). It seems that Paramount Pictures, Universal
Pictures, Warner Bros. Studios and New Line Cinema have chosen
for HD-DVD versus Twentieh Century Fox that has chosen
Blu-ray.

I still find it odd that although Blu-ray seems to be a "superior/
better" format most companies have chosen for HD-DVD.

We'll have to see how this all pans out, no doubt the consumer
will pay the price (literally) for this new "war".

George Ellis · November 29th, 2004, 10:36 AM

Although Blu-Ray is larger, as production goes, HD-DVD is superior. It is compatible with the current DVD production lines according the supporters of the format.

As for the 'war', the +RW Alliance started it, and they are the core to Blu-Ray. That is another reason, IMO, to not like Blu-Ray.

Ken Tanaka · November 29th, 2004, 12:06 PM

It's unfortunate that people do not learn from history, which has repeatedly taught us that discrepancies in standards ultimately diminish the market by confusing and angering buyers. If this dual standard (oxymoron) continues the shock waves will be felt throughout the entertainment business for many years.

Zack Birlew · November 29th, 2004, 02:47 PM

Well I would have chosen HD DVD over Blue Ray simply because of backwards compatibility. You see, the average Joe likes simplicity, he had to adapt to the whole DVD thing and doesn't want to have to go through another change only a few years later. Sony I think is making the right move by using Blue Ray for the Playstation 3, games can use the added space for larger textures and game space in general. Plus, who would want to dump all their DVD's for a totally new format that doesn't work with their DVD's for future viewing? I've still got a garage full of VHS tapes that my family watches frequently, we've only upgraded some of those movies to DVD in Super Deluxe Special Ultra Edition- situations, like the Legend: Director's Cut 10th Anniversary DVD. This whole format war kind of reminds me of the whole Beta vs. VHS fight, Beta was supposedly better (tapes were smaller too) but Sony made the mistake of turning Beta into its Golden Goose and kept the technology to themselves while everyone else produced VHS. Well, that should give you a little idea as to why HD DVD is going to come out on top for the next generation of disc technology.

Rob Lohman · November 29th, 2004, 04:01 PM

Do you guys mean the laser is compatible or not? Because I think
the Blu-ray standard includes that players MUST be backwards
compatible (for video content). I'm pretty sure I read that
multiple times. I doubt any player would be released who would
not be compatible with DVD.

This player for example seems to be compatible, and I also read
a test in the eastern part of the world where a player would
read DVD as well:

http://sharp-world.com/corporate/news/041111.html

George Ellis · November 29th, 2004, 08:10 PM

IIRC, the laser frequency is different between the two. I do not remember the track format. Sony Pictures is Blu-Ray because Sony is one of the original creators of the format (one of the 3 that are the primary Blu-Ray 'owners').

Just to add to the mix, I think it was announced last week that Pioneer has developed a ultraviolet laser format. That was pushing 500GB capability (probably if dual layer, dual sided).

Jesse Bekas · November 29th, 2004, 11:04 PM

Blu-Ray players would, of course, house a second laser to read plain old vanilla DVD movies. Otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance, and nobody could logically back the format.

When it comes to these formats, all I care about is disc size, so I say, Blu-Ray, bring it on!

Rob Lohman · December 9th, 2004, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Walt Disney Co. said on Wednesday it would support the Blu-ray standard for next-generation DVDs backed by Sony Corp., but kept open its options for a rival format championed by Toshiba Corp.

Full article: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7035377

Bill Ravens · December 9th, 2004, 08:28 AM

Blu-ray is NON compatible with older DVD formats and unuseable on conventional DVD writers.

Toshiba is backward compatible.
Plain and simple.

Rob Lohman · December 9th, 2004, 08:56 AM

Bill: it is my understanding that both discs are not compatible
with *existing* players and burners. However, HD-DVD has a new
hybrid form where one layer is DVD and the other layer is HD-DVD
(so that is at least partially compatible).

It is true that HD-DVD uses the same laser, so it is *more* easy
to support DVD on the new HD-DVD players. However, it has been
reported numerous times in the media that all major brands will
support DVD playback on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players
(otherwise they would alienate the market, ofcourse!)

Bill Ravens · December 9th, 2004, 09:11 AM

yep, you're right Rob

Joe Carney · December 9th, 2004, 01:31 PM

There is a new DVD/CD format out that also supports DVD-A. Even Sony which pushes SACD endorsed it. DVD on one side,
cd on the other. Compatible with all existing players.

Joshua Starnes · December 9th, 2004, 04:16 PM

It is true that HD-DVD uses the same laser, so it is *more* easy
to support DVD on the new HD-DVD players. However, it has been
reported numerous times in the media that all major brands will
support DVD playback on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players
(otherwise they would alienate the market, ofcourse!)

My understanding is that commercial Blu-Ray players would be made with both blue and red lasers in order to play both Blu-Ray discs and DVDs. HD-DVD players won't need that kind of trouble and should be much easier to produce than Blu-Ray because they utilize already existing production means.

Robert Mann Z. · December 9th, 2004, 06:05 PM

make me appreciate film even more, still just as compatible as it was when it first came out...

i think that dvd-hd will win out because media is cheaper, and compatibility is greater...

just look at dual layer dvd+r versus dvd+/-r ...no one is flocking to it even though as a medium it holds more, because folks want to keep costs down and want to make sure there inteneded recipiants can play it...

Hayden Rivers · December 9th, 2004, 07:59 PM

First of all, if you buy a Blu-Ray player, it's going to be able to read your DVD collection. I think they're going to include 2 lasers to do this, but what do you care how they do the magic.

Secondly, even if it wasn't backwards compatible, why the hell would anyone care? You can get a DVD player for like $40. Hell, they give them away for free if you sign up for a credit card these days. I've seen them sold for like $25-30 which is less expensive than some of my DVDs.

Did I mention your Blu-Ray player can also play DVDs so all the logic of the above paragraph is virtually unnecessary.

Finally, HD-DVD can store 30GB of information. Blu-Ray can store 50GB of information and they are currently working on Blu-Ray discs that can hold 200GB. Toshiba and the HD-DVD camp aren't saying anything about adding more storage down the line which basically means that it's probably not going to be possible otherwise they would would be countering the Blu-Ray camp's promises of more storage now and a LOT more storage in the future.

So ask yourself, do you want to see a High Definition copy of "Return of the King" on a 30GB HD-DVD or a 50GB Blu-Ray. And yes, I believe that both formats will have support for the 3 major encoding methods (mpeg-2, VC-1 which is the same as Microsoft's WMVHD, and Mpeg-4 AVC otherwise know as h.264). Check this news story to confirm:

http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5330786.html

50gb vs. 30gb. Yeah, one costs more. That's cause it's better.

Edit: Disney just announced they'll be using Blu-Ray and 20th Century Fox is a board member on the Blu-Ray forum so they probably will also announce something similar. So at the moment it's looking like a big messy battle.

November 29th, 2004, 12:06 PM	#3
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	It's unfortunate that people do not learn from history, which has repeatedly taught us that discrepancies in standards ultimately diminish the market by confusing and angering buyers. If this dual standard (oxymoron) continues the shock waves will be felt throughout the entertainment business for many years. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

November 29th, 2004, 02:47 PM	#4
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	Well I would have chosen HD DVD over Blue Ray simply because of backwards compatibility. You see, the average Joe likes simplicity, he had to adapt to the whole DVD thing and doesn't want to have to go through another change only a few years later. Sony I think is making the right move by using Blue Ray for the Playstation 3, games can use the added space for larger textures and game space in general. Plus, who would want to dump all their DVD's for a totally new format that doesn't work with their DVD's for future viewing? I've still got a garage full of VHS tapes that my family watches frequently, we've only upgraded some of those movies to DVD in Super Deluxe Special Ultra Edition- situations, like the Legend: Director's Cut 10th Anniversary DVD. This whole format war kind of reminds me of the whole Beta vs. VHS fight, Beta was supposedly better (tapes were smaller too) but Sony made the mistake of turning Beta into its Golden Goose and kept the technology to themselves while everyone else produced VHS. Well, that should give you a little idea as to why HD DVD is going to come out on top for the next generation of disc technology. __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

November 29th, 2004, 04:01 PM	#5
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Do you guys mean the laser is compatible or not? Because I think the Blu-ray standard includes that players MUST be backwards compatible (for video content). I'm pretty sure I read that multiple times. I doubt any player would be released who would not be compatible with DVD. This player for example seems to be compatible, and I also read a test in the eastern part of the world where a player would read DVD as well: http://sharp-world.com/corporate/news/041111.html __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 9th, 2004, 08:56 AM	#10
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Bill: it is my understanding that both discs are not compatible with existing players and burners. However, HD-DVD has a new hybrid form where one layer is DVD and the other layer is HD-DVD (so that is at least partially compatible). It is true that HD-DVD uses the same laser, so it is more easy to support DVD on the new HD-DVD players. However, it has been reported numerous times in the media that all major brands will support DVD playback on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players (otherwise they would alienate the market, ofcourse!) __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

November 29th, 2004, 10:36 AM	#2
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	Although Blu-Ray is larger, as production goes, HD-DVD is superior. It is compatible with the current DVD production lines according the supporters of the format. As for the 'war', the +RW Alliance started it, and they are the core to Blu-Ray. That is another reason, IMO, to not like Blu-Ray.

November 29th, 2004, 08:10 PM	#6
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	IIRC, the laser frequency is different between the two. I do not remember the track format. Sony Pictures is Blu-Ray because Sony is one of the original creators of the format (one of the 3 that are the primary Blu-Ray 'owners'). Just to add to the mix, I think it was announced last week that Pioneer has developed a ultraviolet laser format. That was pushing 500GB capability (probably if dual layer, dual sided).

November 29th, 2004, 11:04 PM	#7
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	Blu-Ray players would, of course, house a second laser to read plain old vanilla DVD movies. Otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance, and nobody could logically back the format. When it comes to these formats, all I care about is disc size, so I say, Blu-Ray, bring it on!

December 9th, 2004, 08:28 AM	#9
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Blu-ray is NON compatible with older DVD formats and unuseable on conventional DVD writers. Toshiba is backward compatible. Plain and simple.

December 9th, 2004, 09:11 AM	#11
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	yep, you're right Rob

December 9th, 2004, 01:31 PM	#12
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	There is a new DVD/CD format out that also supports DVD-A. Even Sony which pushes SACD endorsed it. DVD on one side, cd on the other. Compatible with all existing players.

December 9th, 2004, 04:16 PM	#13
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	It is true that HD-DVD uses the same laser, so it is more easy to support DVD on the new HD-DVD players. However, it has been reported numerous times in the media that all major brands will support DVD playback on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players (otherwise they would alienate the market, ofcourse!) My understanding is that commercial Blu-Ray players would be made with both blue and red lasers in order to play both Blu-Ray discs and DVDs. HD-DVD players won't need that kind of trouble and should be much easier to produce than Blu-Ray because they utilize already existing production means.

December 9th, 2004, 06:05 PM	#14
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	make me appreciate film even more, still just as compatible as it was when it first came out... i think that dvd-hd will win out because media is cheaper, and compatibility is greater... just look at dual layer dvd+r versus dvd+/-r ...no one is flocking to it even though as a medium it holds more, because folks want to keep costs down and want to make sure there inteneded recipiants can play it...

December 9th, 2004, 07:59 PM	#15
Hayden Rivers Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 53	First of all, if you buy a Blu-Ray player, it's going to be able to read your DVD collection. I think they're going to include 2 lasers to do this, but what do you care how they do the magic. Secondly, even if it wasn't backwards compatible, why the hell would anyone care? You can get a DVD player for like $40. Hell, they give them away for free if you sign up for a credit card these days. I've seen them sold for like $25-30 which is less expensive than some of my DVDs. Did I mention your Blu-Ray player can also play DVDs so all the logic of the above paragraph is virtually unnecessary. Finally, HD-DVD can store 30GB of information. Blu-Ray can store 50GB of information and they are currently working on Blu-Ray discs that can hold 200GB. Toshiba and the HD-DVD camp aren't saying anything about adding more storage down the line which basically means that it's probably not going to be possible otherwise they would would be countering the Blu-Ray camp's promises of more storage now and a LOT more storage in the future. So ask yourself, do you want to see a High Definition copy of "Return of the King" on a 30GB HD-DVD or a 50GB Blu-Ray. And yes, I believe that both formats will have support for the 3 major encoding methods (mpeg-2, VC-1 which is the same as Microsoft's WMVHD, and Mpeg-4 AVC otherwise know as h.264). Check this news story to confirm: http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5330786.html 50gb vs. 30gb. Yeah, one costs more. That's cause it's better. Edit: Disney just announced they'll be using Blu-Ray and 20th Century Fox is a board member on the Blu-Ray forum so they probably will also announce something similar. So at the moment it's looking like a big messy battle.