Looks official, Apple going with Intel

Jeffrey Brown · June 7th, 2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

... especially after this Apple announcement which gives Intel 80% of the market.

interesting 'fact'... but intel already had 82.7%

apple ships what, a couple million machines per year? in the grand scheme of things that means just about jack. there will be monsterous swing of fortunes here, as the apple hardware will still be gloriously overpriced as ever.

Duane Smith · June 7th, 2005, 10:57 AM

Good! I hope they continue to make the kind of gloriously overpriced hardware they've always made!

I love my gloriously overpriced hardware, just like I love my gloriously overpriced software, and my gloriously overpriced camcorder, etc.

;-)

Peter Ferling · June 7th, 2005, 12:53 PM

I never said macs are bad. Just that whenever a company announces a forthcoming product, it takes risk not being able offload it's current product. Who want's to buy a G5, when something better is coming? I'm not talking about replacing a desktop here. I'm talking about an uncompressed workstation between $12K and $30K. Going from Windows to Mac is just more than $3K-5K box. There's software, new processes, (the hidden costs as well),etc. I'm just one guy. What about a print shop, or studio with several workstations? I'm sure the ohh and ah of a mac is not the determining factor is regards to this newest announcement. More like caution, and maybe taking another look at the windows options.

I'm sure most shops with macs are hopeful that their current systems/software will be supported as promised. Do I want to be in their shoes? Why would I spend $25K to join them? Nuts.

Pete

Duane Smith · June 7th, 2005, 03:28 PM

Like I said, I've already been through a transistion like this, and it wasn't really all that bad. And that was in a magazine studio environment with 7 workstations and about $200K in non-Mac specific printing/proofing equipment. Sure, it was kinda scary at first, but for the most part we just kept right on working along. It certainly never stopped us entirely from working, per say.

I just think everyone (especially the media) is blowing this WAY out of proportion...both good and bad.

Boyd Ostroff · June 7th, 2005, 04:38 PM

Here's an interesting take on the switch, from PC Magazine by John C. Dvorak:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1824704,00.asp

Quote:

Apple and its BSD-UNIX kernel running on the Intel platform should outperform Windows by an extreme and I'd guess outperform the PowerPC running the same software too. So Jobs can change his comparison advertising from PowerPC versus Intel to OS-X versus Windows on the exact same chip. The publicity potential here is chart-topping.

Peter Ferling · June 7th, 2005, 09:13 PM

Guess I was mad since I was hooked, had the mac ball in my hand and now somebody up and moved the goal post. (Just not sure if it went up or down field).

After giving it some thought, considering that Steve Jobs is no idiot, and his understanding of the market, he just wouldn't stand on the soap box and say all this without having something lurking in the labs. He obviously inserted foot in mouth and chewed over mirroring IBM's promise for a 3GHz chip that was never delivered. (I'd be pissed-off too).

If my logic serves me correct, and in lieu of windows longhorn on the horizon, I should be just as cautious of Mr. Gates plans for the future as well. (I would just love to see OSX vs. XP on an equal playing field).

Bottom line. I really don't give a damn about the hardware. I just want a stable system, no more bad drivers, configs, firmware updates... I just want to edit, create animations and retouch a few photo's.

Sorry for the rants. I'm just tired of being the pc expert, I never asked to be a part-time IT tech.... well at least there's beer.

Pete

Patrick Jenkins · June 7th, 2005, 09:31 PM

From a developer point of view, WTF? Which platform do you target from this point forward? Risc + PPC which is now all but dead in a year, or Cisc (we assume at least)? Or has Apple done a good enough job with abstracting all hardware so it's essentially a non-issue?

Aaron Koolen · June 7th, 2005, 09:52 PM

Watch the keynote. If you use XCode, you simply click a checkbox, selecting what architecture you want to compile for. It can create a universal binary that works on both architectures.

They are claiming that if you use Cocoa (And over 50% of their top 100 developers already use this), then porting might take a couple of days.

If you Carbon, maybe a few weeks.

It you use Metrowerks, then you must move to XCode.

In the Keynote, they had the Mathematica people fly to them, with the code and get it up and running on the Intel OSX Tiger Jobs demoed. I think it only took them several hours.

So, if what they're saying pans out, it might be only a small issue for most development houses.

Aaron

Duane Smith · June 8th, 2005, 06:44 AM

For those that haven't read it, here's a FANTASTIC article from Ars Technica about Apple's switch:

http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050607.ars

It'a a long article, but well worth reading.

Ron Johnson · June 8th, 2005, 09:47 AM

I know there's no easy way to make this kind of switch and IBM/Freescale were limiting Apple's potential, but won't this kill HW/SW Sales for the next year or two?

I am especially concerned about SW - I would not want to make major expenditures for SW until the new platform is released - I value my time and don't think that "pretty good" translation performance would be adequate vs. $hundreds spent.

I suppose it would help if all of the major SW vendors (including Apple) announced that current owners of package XYZ would be granted free upgrade/switching rights to the new platform/OS for a limited period.

rj

Nick Hiltgen · June 8th, 2005, 12:20 PM

Ron it sounded from the key note that at least for the next two years (and probably a year or two after that at least) software will be compiled with a univerasl binary which will allow it to run on the new intelmacs as well as the older powerpcmacs. I think perhaps it will kill hardware sales for a couple of months then it will pick up again for about a year and then it will die down again for another 6 months in anticipation of the next processor. I'm sure we'll see all sorts of articles of how the new intel processors suck at running osx and then an equal number of articles about how it runs better then the ppc chips. I think it's just going to come down to the way it always is in this business if you need a cpu that's the best time to buy one. And there really is very little chance that a new g5 2.7 (or 2.9 or 3.4) will be obsolete in less time then it will take for your extended warrenty to run out.

Boyd Ostroff · June 8th, 2005, 12:35 PM

I agree Nick. And just to be sure, I checked my dual G5/2.5 this morning. It still runs just as well as it did last Friday before the Intel announcement ;-)

Luis Caffesse · June 8th, 2005, 02:41 PM

I don't own a mac, but I had been planning on getting a dual G5 before the end of the year. Initially it took the wind out of my sails a bit to hear the announcement...but after some thought, I think I will probably go forward with my original plan and get a dual 2.7 within the next 2 months or so.

Apple announed this a year out, which is a whole lot of lead time for both consumers and developers. They won't be switching until the first half of 2006, and even then it will begin with the lower end models. High end models won't be switching over until the second half of 2007, that's 2 years away before any system you'd be editing on will switch at the earliest.

Generally, if you're in a post production environment, you'd already be starting to think about upgrading your editing system after 2 years anyhow.

Even if you were to buy a dual G5 today, it would run great and do everything you needed to do for the next 2 to 3 and maybe even 4 years. After that, you can switch over to a new intel based Mac if you choose.

I agree, I wouldn't buy a PPC based G5 in a year, but I see no reason to worry about buying one today. And, I would worry even less if I already owned a G5, at least now you know the future track the product line will take.

We all know that technology is always changing and that the gear we buy today will be obsolete within a matter or years. The only difference this time is that we know when and how it will happen.

It's like knowing the exact date of your death....while it may help you plan for the future, it's still kind of a bummer.

Greg Boston · June 8th, 2005, 03:09 PM

Just an observation to add about some posts about overpriced Mac hardware. Having just added a Mac to my household after 20 some years of being pc/windows only, I used to think this very same thing. But, I realized that every Apple system right down to the Mac mini, comes with a slew of applications on top of the OS that you would easily spend hundreds of dollars obtaining for your new homebuilt pc. The tightness of the integration of these apps is what really sold me. Plus, being Unix based, it needs less processor horsepower to accomplish the same task. I can truly say without bias that you get your money's worth right out of the box. And, how much is YOUR time worth. Less time fighting with the system and getting more work done translates into a lot of money fast when you use the machine to supply your bread and butter.

I used to look at machine specs only and walk away shaking my head at people who spent so much more on their Mac systems. Start looking beyond specs alone and you'll see that the margin narrows considerably.

Now, I have the best of both worlds so I can use my Windows based machine for apps that are Windows only and I have the Mac to use apps that only exist in the OSX environment.

We truly live in exciting times!

-gb-

Jeff Sayre · June 8th, 2005, 09:09 PM

I was a partner of a 120-person firm with offices in 5 states and had significant experience with the "joys" of Windows-based PCs in a WAN environment. Even though it was not my primary job, I dealt with WinDell issues almost on a daily basis. When I got home, I took solace in my two Apple systems patiently waiting and, more importantly, working--most of the time.

Now, my wife and I have four Apple systems in our small business. Oh, we do have one WinDell which is used for testing IE functionality on our websites.

So, here is my take on this issue:

Having been one of the progenitors of the PC revolution (let's remember, PC means personal computer, not WinTel computer), Steve jobs has been traversing the treacherous road of innovation and market change for his entire career.

He's started two companies (that I know of) and turned two around. Jobs is a consummate business person with significant business acumen. How many of us would have had the vision and leadership skills to purchase a company for $10 million and grow it into a $2 billion company (market cap) in 14 years? And, do this while at the same time (over the last 9 years) turning around Apple and transforming it into the company it is today. It must be an enormous challenge to run both Apple and Pixar.

Jobs has had failures of course. Some pretty big ones in fact. But, the difference is that his successes have out shined many of his failures to date. He is a risk taker that seems to take the appropriate risk more times than not. That is a difficult attribute to groom in a leader.

Steve Jobs has the Midas touch. My stock portfolio thanks him. (I, on the other hand, have somewhere between a pewter and bronze touch. Or, possibly, I have a touch of the flu. I'm not sure.)

Although I am a big fan of Apple systems and software, I'm not a Steve Jobs sycophant. I'm a watcher of exceptional business people. I learn what I can from their successes and mistakes. To stay alive in business, you have to look toward the future, toward the 10-20 year horizon and anticipate the trends and changes that will reshape the marketplace. Apparently that's what Jobs and Apple have done and they say it's time for another change. Okay, great. Just do it and do it well.

My only issue with this is that in 2 years, when its time for me to upgrade once again, I won't be able to get as much for my used equipment. But the new Apple system that I'll buy I'm sure (or I hope anyway) will be something that is amazing--and something that will help make my business even more successful.

Does anyone want to offer me 80% of the purchase price of my current two NLE systems to be paid to me in 2 years? I'm willing to talk ;)

June 7th, 2005, 09:31 PM	#22
Patrick Jenkins Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 382	From a developer point of view, WTF? Which platform do you target from this point forward? Risc + PPC which is now all but dead in a year, or Cisc (we assume at least)? Or has Apple done a good enough job with abstracting all hardware so it's essentially a non-issue? __________________ PAL shooter in NTSC territory

June 7th, 2005, 09:52 PM	#23
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Watch the keynote. If you use XCode, you simply click a checkbox, selecting what architecture you want to compile for. It can create a universal binary that works on both architectures. They are claiming that if you use Cocoa (And over 50% of their top 100 developers already use this), then porting might take a couple of days. If you Carbon, maybe a few weeks. It you use Metrowerks, then you must move to XCode. In the Keynote, they had the Mathematica people fly to them, with the code and get it up and running on the Intel OSX Tiger Jobs demoed. I think it only took them several hours. So, if what they're saying pans out, it might be only a small issue for most development houses. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

June 8th, 2005, 09:47 AM	#25
Ron Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 103	I know there's no easy way to make this kind of switch and IBM/Freescale were limiting Apple's potential, but won't this kill HW/SW Sales for the next year or two? I am especially concerned about SW - I would not want to make major expenditures for SW until the new platform is released - I value my time and don't think that "pretty good" translation performance would be adequate vs. $hundreds spent. I suppose it would help if all of the major SW vendors (including Apple) announced that current owners of package XYZ would be granted free upgrade/switching rights to the new platform/OS for a limited period. rj __________________ Ron Johnson Portland, OR

June 8th, 2005, 02:41 PM	#28
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	I don't own a mac, but I had been planning on getting a dual G5 before the end of the year. Initially it took the wind out of my sails a bit to hear the announcement...but after some thought, I think I will probably go forward with my original plan and get a dual 2.7 within the next 2 months or so. Apple announed this a year out, which is a whole lot of lead time for both consumers and developers. They won't be switching until the first half of 2006, and even then it will begin with the lower end models. High end models won't be switching over until the second half of 2007, that's 2 years away before any system you'd be editing on will switch at the earliest. Generally, if you're in a post production environment, you'd already be starting to think about upgrading your editing system after 2 years anyhow. Even if you were to buy a dual G5 today, it would run great and do everything you needed to do for the next 2 to 3 and maybe even 4 years. After that, you can switch over to a new intel based Mac if you choose. I agree, I wouldn't buy a PPC based G5 in a year, but I see no reason to worry about buying one today. And, I would worry even less if I already owned a G5, at least now you know the future track the product line will take. We all know that technology is always changing and that the gear we buy today will be obsolete within a matter or years. The only difference this time is that we know when and how it will happen. It's like knowing the exact date of your death....while it may help you plan for the future, it's still kind of a bummer. __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

June 7th, 2005, 10:57 AM	#17
Duane Smith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 234	Good! I hope they continue to make the kind of gloriously overpriced hardware they've always made! I love my gloriously overpriced hardware, just like I love my gloriously overpriced software, and my gloriously overpriced camcorder, etc. ;-)

June 7th, 2005, 12:53 PM	#18
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	I never said macs are bad. Just that whenever a company announces a forthcoming product, it takes risk not being able offload it's current product. Who want's to buy a G5, when something better is coming? I'm not talking about replacing a desktop here. I'm talking about an uncompressed workstation between $12K and $30K. Going from Windows to Mac is just more than $3K-5K box. There's software, new processes, (the hidden costs as well),etc. I'm just one guy. What about a print shop, or studio with several workstations? I'm sure the ohh and ah of a mac is not the determining factor is regards to this newest announcement. More like caution, and maybe taking another look at the windows options. I'm sure most shops with macs are hopeful that their current systems/software will be supported as promised. Do I want to be in their shoes? Why would I spend $25K to join them? Nuts. Pete

June 7th, 2005, 03:28 PM	#19
Duane Smith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 234	Like I said, I've already been through a transistion like this, and it wasn't really all that bad. And that was in a magazine studio environment with 7 workstations and about $200K in non-Mac specific printing/proofing equipment. Sure, it was kinda scary at first, but for the most part we just kept right on working along. It certainly never stopped us entirely from working, per say. I just think everyone (especially the media) is blowing this WAY out of proportion...both good and bad.

June 7th, 2005, 09:13 PM	#21
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Guess I was mad since I was hooked, had the mac ball in my hand and now somebody up and moved the goal post. (Just not sure if it went up or down field). After giving it some thought, considering that Steve Jobs is no idiot, and his understanding of the market, he just wouldn't stand on the soap box and say all this without having something lurking in the labs. He obviously inserted foot in mouth and chewed over mirroring IBM's promise for a 3GHz chip that was never delivered. (I'd be pissed-off too). If my logic serves me correct, and in lieu of windows longhorn on the horizon, I should be just as cautious of Mr. Gates plans for the future as well. (I would just love to see OSX vs. XP on an equal playing field). Bottom line. I really don't give a damn about the hardware. I just want a stable system, no more bad drivers, configs, firmware updates... I just want to edit, create animations and retouch a few photo's. Sorry for the rants. I'm just tired of being the pc expert, I never asked to be a part-time IT tech.... well at least there's beer. Pete

June 8th, 2005, 06:44 AM	#24
Duane Smith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 234	For those that haven't read it, here's a FANTASTIC article from Ars Technica about Apple's switch: http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050607.ars It'a a long article, but well worth reading.

June 8th, 2005, 12:20 PM	#26
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	Ron it sounded from the key note that at least for the next two years (and probably a year or two after that at least) software will be compiled with a univerasl binary which will allow it to run on the new intelmacs as well as the older powerpcmacs. I think perhaps it will kill hardware sales for a couple of months then it will pick up again for about a year and then it will die down again for another 6 months in anticipation of the next processor. I'm sure we'll see all sorts of articles of how the new intel processors suck at running osx and then an equal number of articles about how it runs better then the ppc chips. I think it's just going to come down to the way it always is in this business if you need a cpu that's the best time to buy one. And there really is very little chance that a new g5 2.7 (or 2.9 or 3.4) will be obsolete in less time then it will take for your extended warrenty to run out.

June 8th, 2005, 12:35 PM	#27
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	I agree Nick. And just to be sure, I checked my dual G5/2.5 this morning. It still runs just as well as it did last Friday before the Intel announcement ;-)

June 8th, 2005, 03:09 PM	#29
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Just an observation to add about some posts about overpriced Mac hardware. Having just added a Mac to my household after 20 some years of being pc/windows only, I used to think this very same thing. But, I realized that every Apple system right down to the Mac mini, comes with a slew of applications on top of the OS that you would easily spend hundreds of dollars obtaining for your new homebuilt pc. The tightness of the integration of these apps is what really sold me. Plus, being Unix based, it needs less processor horsepower to accomplish the same task. I can truly say without bias that you get your money's worth right out of the box. And, how much is YOUR time worth. Less time fighting with the system and getting more work done translates into a lot of money fast when you use the machine to supply your bread and butter. I used to look at machine specs only and walk away shaking my head at people who spent so much more on their Mac systems. Start looking beyond specs alone and you'll see that the margin narrows considerably. Now, I have the best of both worlds so I can use my Windows based machine for apps that are Windows only and I have the Mac to use apps that only exist in the OSX environment. We truly live in exciting times! -gb-

June 8th, 2005, 09:09 PM	#30
Jeff Sayre Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: South Bend, IN Posts: 301	I was a partner of a 120-person firm with offices in 5 states and had significant experience with the "joys" of Windows-based PCs in a WAN environment. Even though it was not my primary job, I dealt with WinDell issues almost on a daily basis. When I got home, I took solace in my two Apple systems patiently waiting and, more importantly, working--most of the time. Now, my wife and I have four Apple systems in our small business. Oh, we do have one WinDell which is used for testing IE functionality on our websites. So, here is my take on this issue: Having been one of the progenitors of the PC revolution (let's remember, PC means personal computer, not WinTel computer), Steve jobs has been traversing the treacherous road of innovation and market change for his entire career. He's started two companies (that I know of) and turned two around. Jobs is a consummate business person with significant business acumen. How many of us would have had the vision and leadership skills to purchase a company for $10 million and grow it into a $2 billion company (market cap) in 14 years? And, do this while at the same time (over the last 9 years) turning around Apple and transforming it into the company it is today. It must be an enormous challenge to run both Apple and Pixar. Jobs has had failures of course. Some pretty big ones in fact. But, the difference is that his successes have out shined many of his failures to date. He is a risk taker that seems to take the appropriate risk more times than not. That is a difficult attribute to groom in a leader. Steve Jobs has the Midas touch. My stock portfolio thanks him. (I, on the other hand, have somewhere between a pewter and bronze touch. Or, possibly, I have a touch of the flu. I'm not sure.) Although I am a big fan of Apple systems and software, I'm not a Steve Jobs sycophant. I'm a watcher of exceptional business people. I learn what I can from their successes and mistakes. To stay alive in business, you have to look toward the future, toward the 10-20 year horizon and anticipate the trends and changes that will reshape the marketplace. Apparently that's what Jobs and Apple have done and they say it's time for another change. Okay, great. Just do it and do it well. My only issue with this is that in 2 years, when its time for me to upgrade once again, I won't be able to get as much for my used equipment. But the new Apple system that I'll buy I'm sure (or I hope anyway) will be something that is amazing--and something that will help make my business even more successful. Does anyone want to offer me 80% of the purchase price of my current two NLE systems to be paid to me in 2 years? I'm willing to talk ;)