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Old January 22nd, 2012, 01:37 AM   #31
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

The sensor is 2592x1940 pixels so its 4:3, the resolution I was shooting at for those two Vimeo videos is 2592x1104x12bit@24.000fps.

That mode also shoots at 23.976fps and 25.000fps

The camera shoots many modes, it also does 2400x1200 for 2:1 aspect ratio, 2048x1152 for 1.85:1 35mm filmout being 16:9 for making the Blu-ray and a bit more for the projector framing.

There is an oversample 16:9 ratio also, as well as 1920x1080x12bit@29.97fps, and 1280x720x12bit@59.94fps.

The 2.35:1 aspect has 48fps and 72fps modes to reduce rolling shutter on hand held shots.

They can add more modes the sensor is programmable.

The image area at 2592x1104 is a bit wider than Super8 but the diagonal is about the same, just a tad larger than 6mm diagonal of CS mount lenses, I have a CS mount zoom that seems to cover.

The lens mount can change for C, CS, or D mount for 8mm movie camera lenses, so you can use sharp movie lenses and Super8 Angenieux and Schneider lenses, 1/2" and 2/3" megapixel lenses, and sharp 16mm movie camera lenses, and maybe some 1/3" lenses if they cover and are sharp.

The maximum fps is 220fps now and the minimum is 1fps now, but the production camera may have more range.

If you are interested you email Kinefinity (tm) directly and talk to them about details.

I'm working an an anamorphic video now, shot 2.35:1 anamorphic mode that uses the true 'Panavision (tm)' Cineon (tm) and Celco (tm) resolution of 1828x1556 that is used for real movie so called 2K film scans. That is the same resolution used in film recorders to make 35mm printing negatives that you see in movie theaters.

The camera records 100% uncompressed full True RAW Bayer sensor data, the maximum recording rate is about 108MB/s but varies depending on the resolution selected, it ends up at about 9 minutes of non-stop recording in a 60GB SSD. The camera has two drive slots, so you can shoot to the SSD and then dump shots to a notebook 2.5" HDD in the other slot, and the clear the SSD and re-use it.

I was shooting with a 60GB SSD and a 500GB HDD. If you have more than one SSD you can swap the SSD rather than dump the shots in the camera, but you can also swap the HDD to make more than one backup all without needing to pack around a notebook computer while shooting.
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Old January 22nd, 2012, 12:26 PM   #32
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

Geez, if the s35 is perhaps $8 grand-ish how much are the smaller ones going to be? The s16 version claims a roll-free global shutter on the web site too.

These have a sort of niche Mail-order-catalogue-DIY vibe about them that is pretty cool too. No doubt their scientific equipment background showing though. Using one might be a bit of a crash course in how video cameras really work (for me at least). But there's that 'red badge of courage', as Dan Hudgins put it, for having to do your own de-Bayering and what not.
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 04:42 AM   #33
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

Quote:
These have a sort of niche Mail-order-catalogue-DIY vibe about them that is pretty cool too. No doubt their scientific equipment background showing though.
What wouldn't be pretty cool is a niche Mail-order-catalogue-DIY, assembly required, no tools included, Chinese instructions, foreign support kind of kit. I like bang-for-buck stuff as much as everyone else, but one can willingly trade only so much convenience for cheaper hardware, the price of which becomes increasingly insignificant considering the type of productions that typically desire 2/4k and RAW workflow.

A truly revolutionary camera should come with 24-hour worldwide support, overnight repair/replacement, and the option of hiring a technician who knows the thing inside out (and speaks your language too).
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Old January 24th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #34
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

The interface on the KineRAW-S8p (tm) is relatively easy to use.

The real time waveforms and histograms are useful in setting exposure and color balance. The 200% zoom lets you zoom in on a white wall or gray card to set the color balalance if you want to use the in-camera feature, otherwise you can leave that to post since its a 100% True RAW uncompressed 12bit recording.

It works very much like a movie camera, so there is no real need for much in the way of instructions, the on-screen readouts and displays are for the most part obvious to any cinematographer.

Its not like the confusing menu system of some Japanese cameras perhaps, its quite simple as there is NO in camera processing of the images, that is all left for post processing so you can't mess up the recording by setting the wrong in camera processing of the data the way you can in Japanese camcorders and HDSLR.

Its a CinemaDNG camera, so simple to shoot with like the Acam dII (tm) but with 2.5K resolution rather than just HD, so you get oversample and lower cost.

If you have thoughts about the camera options and features you should email Kinefinity (tm) and share your thoughts so they get a feel for what people are thinking.

Its are product for people with particular interest, a real Digital Cinema Camera for making movies that can be transferred to 35mm movie film or to make a DCP for projection in movie theaters, as well as make Blu-ray and DVD that look similar to having shot 35mm movie film, maybe.

I'm processing frames today for the anamorphic demo reel, shot with the 1828x1556 Cineon (tm) Panavision (tm) pixel resolution mode, it will be some weeks before that is up on Vimeo because a few more shots are needed. It is planed to have sync sound and audio mix similar to what would be made for a stereo optical track on a feature film.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #35
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konstantin Kovalev View Post
What wouldn't be pretty cool is a niche Mail-order-catalogue-DIY, assembly required, no tools included, Chinese instructions, foreign support kind of kit. I like bang-for-buck stuff as much as everyone else, but one can willingly trade only so much convenience for cheaper hardware, the price of which becomes increasingly insignificant considering the type of productions that typically desire 2/4k and RAW workflow.

A truly revolutionary camera should come with 24-hour worldwide support, overnight repair/replacement, and the option of hiring a technician who knows the thing inside out (and speaks your language too).
Well, properly monied productions have their own concerns and treat hiring a camera like hiring a forklift or anything else, weighing up the service etc as part of the package. It's just part of the consumerism. Further down the scale, if you can't spend the money you might be able to spend the time.
I keep coming back to how many even mid level productions pick up off the shelf equipment and then modify and bolt on all sorts of stuff to bypass all the camera's internal processing and get it to spit out the sort of stuff that this one will already. Lots of people modding the hell out of their DSLRs and pro-sumer level cameras for that first indie feature are going to be intrigued by this kind of thing. The hacker spirit is alive and well with them. I doubt it would matter if the manual was in Mandarin, even though it's not.

Dan: Do I read you right that you can over crank the s8, at least, to 220fps? At full frame?
They don't mention that feature on the site. That's amazing if true. They should put that in big bold letters. Every low budget video artist, music video maker and general experimentalist would want one.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #36
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

About the overcrank, the sensor in the production cameras may be different from the prototype I'm using for development of the color matching, de-Bayer, and freeish work-flow option.

Right now the camera is just shooting fixed sync speeds under crystal control, the sensor area varies with the speed once the sensor clock is maxed out. 220fps is not full sensor width like the mode I am shooting the demos with.

The final resolution list is not finished yet, and if a faster sensor is used the top speeds would be higher, maybe.

==

I think you are right about the mods, the KineRAW (tm) cameras are built to use like a movie camera including date+TOD and SMPTE time code and auto-slate including slate meta-data that can be burned into the processed workprint frames.

Its something that you can use like a movie camera, and uses standard SATA SSD format drives to record to, and has a second slot to put a notebook HDD into or another SSD to dump shots onto so you don't need to pack a note book computer around.

If the first models sell well they might have enough cash to improve the sensors later and maybe the overcrank range. But for now, if you are making a normal theatrical movie 24fps is the standard for making a DCP just as many of the great films of all time were ONLY shot 24fps in a Mitchell NC or BNC.
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Old January 30th, 2012, 04:48 AM   #37
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

Interesting.

If they made a S35 2K mini insert to fit the P+S Technik SI2K recorder unit body, capable of recording to DVR2, I might be interested.

The published frame grabs remind me in their general "look" of previously published frame grabs from the Kinor product offerings which were also in different film format frame sizes. I wonder if there is some shared tech in there somewhere.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 05:36 PM   #38
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

The S35 camera records True RAW to DNG (CinemaDNG) and Cineform (tm), so I don't see where the SI-2K (tm) adds something? Cineform (tm) is supported by various workflows and can be converted to DNG and DPX etc. for additional workflows.

I don't think there is any connection to the look of the S35 results and Kinor-2K (tm), I have sample DNG from both cameras and I see not relationship.

The KineRAW-S35 is like G5 development of the Kinefinity (tm) camera series that has been going on for about 4 years.

The RAW sensor data can be graded in many ways and its look depends in part of the software used to de-Bayer it.

My free de-Bayer program DANCINEC.EXE (tm) is only one of many workflow options.
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Old February 11th, 2012, 02:22 AM   #39
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

I just got a firmware update for the KineRAW-S8p (tm) that includes viewfinder anamorphic un-squeeze options for anamorphic lenses of 1.25:1, 1.33:1, 1.5:1, 1.75:1, and standard 2:1 squeeze lenses.

That should take care of just about all the known types made. I assume that it will also be included in the other cameras, S35 and S16.

2:1 lenses are used with the 1828x1556 Cineon (tm) Panavision (tm) mode.

1.75:1 lenses can be used with the 1920x1440 mode (4:3) for getting 2.35:1

The 16:9 modes can be used with 1.33:1 lenses to get 2.35:1

The 4:3 modes can be used with 1.33:1 lenses to get 16:9

The other adapters are sort of non-standard or rare, but supported. Additional resolutions may be added to get standard ratios from them later.

Some other improvements were also made, like automatic advance of the sound take number for the slate information meta-data of the auto-slate.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 02:54 AM   #40
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

I got word from Kinefinity (tm) in China that they have just gotten two working prototypes of the revised KineRAW-S35 (tm) from the factory, and they are shooting CinemaDNG and Cineform (tm) with them.

There making some tweaks to the firmware and a few other things, but shooting should be able to start before too long on some new demo footage. I'm not sure what the maximum resolution is currently, but I think 2048x1080 is supported for making DCP for projection in digital movie theaters, as well as HD mode.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 03:33 AM   #41
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

I noticed that there are some public images of the render of the S35 revision that has just been delivered from the factory for testing.

there are links to some of the sample footage and frames I sent Kinefinity (tm) while testing the KineRAW-S8p (tm) at that link as well.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 05:58 AM   #42
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

I've been getting some calibration DNG from the two revised KineRAW-S35 (tm) prototypes the last few weeks, and making some monitoring LUT for the cameras viewfinder 'look' file use. Hopefully shooting of some demo test footage will start before too long...
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Old March 12th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #43
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

I do love the idea of 100Mbps 2K Cineform RAW. Will be great to see how this turns out.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 05:11 PM   #44
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

I posted the third test reel for the KineRAW-S8p (tm).

It stutters a bit from the Vimeo playback on my Brother's computer, and there are some spots left behind in the scrolling titles from the compression it seems, but you get the general idea of what shooting at f/0.95 with a 2:1 squeeze lens gets you,


Yea, there is no substitute for using a real anamorphic lens to get those great flare effects. I was using the ElmoScope-II anamorphic adapter on a Bolex H16 with a mounting plate held onto the turret , but the low resolution of 16mm movie film did not bring out the fine details like the KineRAW-S8p can in part because film has so much grain and un-steadiness, the KineRAW-S8p worked great for the two composite shots since there is zero regeneration error.

Lots more features and lenses to test in the KineRAW-S8p like 19201440 for 4:3 in Black and White (someone in Europe was asking about that), and 220fps slow motion etc.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 06:41 PM   #45
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Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

Ha, that's awesome! Loved everything about it, especially the difficult casting job and all of those folks in the credits. Outstanding, Dan!
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