S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000

[Dan Hudgins]

The photo above from BIRTV is not the current camera model, that was KineRAW-S35 (tm) prototype one, the current model is KineRAW-S35 prototype two and has many changes and improvements, and is I think smaller and lighter weight.

I have one here for shooting calibration DNG for making monitoring LUT and doing some lens mount adapter measurements and such, as the OLPF+IR cut filter requires optical distance measurements for the Flange to Focal length distance.

Also the MSRP may be lower than the $8000 shown above and may include a lens adapter, which is quick change with accurate FFD, and a KineMAG (tm) SSD to record uncompressed or Cineform (tm) to.

==

I got another email today from Kinefinity.com (sm) with the links to the LUT needed for working with the Cineform (tm) samples,

Quote: [
Here are links for Low-Contrast Rec709 LUT.

1. daylight-160.look: daylight_160.look????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
2. daylight-160.cube: daylight_160.cube????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

Speedgrade NX, Firstlight can use .look file, while Da Vinci Resolve uses .cube file. People can use the LUT as monitoring LUT, but also use it as a starting point of grading .
]

As before you click on the green button, and in firefox if you have the "always ask folder to save to" option selected a window will pop-up so you can select the folder to save the files into.

Those 3D-LUT are made by the camera from the monitoring LUT selected during the shooting of each shot, and each shot folder gets the matching 3D-LUTs to view it matching the monitoring.

The idea behind the LowCon709 look group is that you would re-grade the images, its a bit like FILMLOG or Cineon (tm) type 'LOG-C' but adjusted so that there is softclip included and it uses a wider range of tones but not the full range so that there is no strong S-curve or major clipping other than white balance.

I made those monitoring LUT for the camera so they could shoot some test footage and re-grade it with an S-curve and black crush, but it seems that concept got lost along the way a bit, so if you try to use those 3D-LUT keep in mind that they do not make finished Rec709 nor were they intended to. So you will see more FPN than would be normal because of the stretch in the shadow detail part of the curve, that is to give the widest latitude in shooting and to overcome the poor shadow and highlight detail of the small LCD monitors used for camera monitoring, with the intention that the black and white ends of the tonal range would be rolled off in grading by a skilled colorist while still giving some latitude for small exposure errors in shooting.

I have since changed my developmental code for making the camera monitoring tables so I have better control of the foot and toe of the transfer curve at the higher ISO speeds (where the curves are steep at the bottom end) so I can add some roll off to the toe when I revise these tables and that would show less FPN and shadow noise, some of which I have already done in the Normal and HighCon look groups for monitoring tables since those were made after the program revisions.

BTW: Those 3D-LUT are just made to work with the native sensor color balance of the current KineRAW-S35 (tm) and its improved OLPF+IR cut filter, using them on any other camera's data will not yield useful results, they are just for use with the Cineform (tm) clips linked to above if you want a starting white balance to grade from.

The links to the Cineform (tm) clips you can download and the sample edited MOV you can download are in posts in the previous page.

If you have any questions about the sample clips from this field testing you can email Kinefinity.com (tm) and ask them about the workflow they used.

[Dan Hudgins]

There is what looks like an over compressed version of the MOV file on Vimeo now along with a better looking grade made by someone that downloaded clip #3 here,

Video: KineRAW S-35, unofficial sample on Vimeo

Kineraw S35 Test Footage on Vimeo

Its best to download the original files yourself and look at them in Quicktime (tm) player, you need to get the Cineform (tm) codec for Quicktime (tm) from the Cineform (tm) site to play the Cineform (tm) clips with raw color balance (ungraded).

There is also a badly over compressed copy of the MOV file on youku,

Quote: [

Hi, Dan,

Here are our show reel by our domestic partner:

This on youku(like Chinese youtube.com) link:
KineRAW S-35,???????? - ?? - ???? - ????

There are 720p H.264 mov for downloading:
final_422hq-QuickTime_H.264.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

There are some Cineform RAW footages for downloading:
Clip1: clip1.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
Clip2: clip2.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
Clip3: clip3.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

...
]

I did not post the youku.com version because it shows obvious compression artifacts, the MOV file that is zipped in the rar is much sharper from 115.com.

Not much to judging a camera that shoots uncompressed at about 100MB/s from versions that have been compressed at least three or four times, so hopefully I will be able to shot some CinemaDNG (tm) and make a 6000Kbps MPEG4v2 to upload at Vimeo, but even that at 1920x1080 shows losses over making an uncompressed AVI file when viewed as all uncompressed playback from all uncompressed DI in my DI system, at least it does with the KineRAW-S8p (tm) tests I have viewed both ways, the uncompressed AVI is visibly better when viewed close to the monitor as the image would be viewed off a full size movie screen from a DCP or 35mm/IMAX (tm) film print.

Ick like cell phone video does not do well for showing what a raw recording S35 sensor camera can do...

If there is an important question try emailing me or Kinefinity.com (sm) with a clear subject line for the email.

[Dan Hudgins]

I have posted two more KineRAW-S0p (tm) videos on vimeo showing the use of over-sample modes 1920x1440, 2228x1252, 2400x1200, 2952x1104.

Sorry about the compression artifacts, if you want to see what the uncompressed original BMP frames used to make the video uploaded look like you can email me and ask for sample frames, my email is: tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com and put "DVinfo user wants frames" in the subject line so I know its not junk mail., thanks.

KineRAW-S8p (tm) E1 1920x1440 black and white oversample silent reel on Vimeo

KineRAW-S8p (tm) F1 oversample tests reel on Vimeo

The work on the KineRAW-S35 (tm) continues, I made a new kind of monitoring LUT for it, and the results for color matching on all workflow options seems improved in compatibility and image quality. The tonal range, resolution, and color all look good so far as does the noise level from the CinemaDNG workflow as well as some improvement on the Cineform (tm) workflow quality as well maybe. Each firmware revision and progress on the monitoring LUT development seem to get closer to the goal of a functional Digital Cinema Camera.

I shot some Cineform and CinemaDNG at the same time the other day to test the new experimental monitoring LUT and my brother installed the Cineform codec on his fast computer and we were able to load the 3D-LUT the camera makes for color matching of each shot and were able to watch color correct 2048x1080 playback from the Cineform camera version on my Brother's 2K monitor full size both in Quicktime and loaded into Sony Vegas NLE. The advantage of using the Both mode is that you can record both Cineform and CinemaDNG, and use the Cineform as a high quality proxy for editing and then do the uncompressed DI from the CinemaDNG if you like, or just finish from the Cineform and hold the CinemaDNG for later use.

Be sure to watch the videos 1:1 pixel on a 1920x1080 or larger monitor, don't "fit to screen" if you have a larger or smaller monitor as that can make aliasing.

[Damian Heffernan]

Don't want to sound too negative here but i'm kind of over the kineraw. It feels a little bit RED in that it's been months and there's no solid info, no release dates, nothing. People are going to have one of the othernoptionsmin their hands by the time we see a camera. And i'm not certain you'll see a Scarlet user sell up to buy a kineraw.

[Simon Wood]

Originally Posted by Damian Heffernan

Don't want to sound too negative here but i'm kind of over the kineraw. It feels a little bit RED in that it's been months and there's no solid info, no release dates, nothing. People are going to have one of the othernoptionsmin their hands by the time we see a camera. And i'm not certain you'll see a Scarlet user sell up to buy a kineraw.

Yeah, the problem is that this is looking a bit old hat given whats happened recently (Black Magic, Scarlet, C300, C500, 1DC, FS700, Digi Bolex etc). Ikonshop have also reduced their prices for a starter kit at under e10,000 (presumably in reaction to the BL and Bolex announcements) - the Ikonshop camera has a proven track record too.

Kineraw would want to release this soonish to have any impact. They can't afford to have Scarlet-esque delays. Anyone remember the Sparta RAW camera? No?

I started this thread back in August 2011, and joked that it would probably be available before Scarlet (which was still a pipe dream back then). So much has changed since then.

I reckon the Black Magic camera will be the one to watch in this race. Black Magic has a good reputation and a solid background in the field. The only thing the KineRaw has over it at this point is the preferred S35 sensor size. But the Black Magic price should tip the scales.

It will be interesting to see where Black Magic go from here; possibly a S35 or even 4K?

[Bob Hart]

Scott.

True, there are more fish in the pond now. However if they can stick with their projected pricing and have it work properly out of the box in both cineform and cinema DNG, there will be people very interested. The domestic market in its home country and nearby Asia may well help it along.

I would not be so sure about the Scarlett/Epic. There is a bit of a crisis of confidence going on over a dropped frame and audio sync issue with the latest build. No doubt it will be sorted soon enough but if the KineRAW standard S35 camera comes out of the blocks running, fully matured and not in beta, there will be people interested, even if it ends up being their backup camera.

[Dan Hudgins]

I'm getting the sample KineRAW-S35 (tm) ready for shooting some more sample footage, and for shooting the monitoring calibration DNG to base the camera's monitoring LUT on, those convert in the camera to 3D-LUT that fit several workflows including the use of Cineform (tm) with Quicktime (tm) and other Editing software etc. There is a tool in the Cineform (tm) program folder you drag the 3D-LUT into then the playback of the Cineform (tm) is color corrected.

I have sample uncompressed frames from KineRAW-S8p (tm) I can email from the E1 and F1 videos, if you want to see those you can email me with "DVinfo user wants E1 and F1 frames."

Sample Cineform (tm) files can be obtained by writing to Kinefinity.com (tm) if you want to see if your computer can play those, be sure to ask for the associated 3D-LUT to get the color to look right.

The shiny aluminum parts are the ones I made to use our Konvas matte box and lenses, and to attach the Mitchell follow focus, other filmmakers could do similar to use their existing parts, or if they like use anything they want to if they have the money to purchase new parts. Note the histogram in the EV screen photo, I an under 18% gray tick mark at ISO 1280, much of the noise and blur is from taking the photo not from the camera, I had to put the lens out of focus to avoid moire from the LCD then re-sharpen so I sharpened the camera noise form the snapshot camera I was using to take the photos with.

I attached a half size JPG of a sample frame shot using a M42 Soligar 35mm f/2 lens, you should email me for the full size TIF to see it better on a 2K monitor at 1:1 pixel resolution uncompressed.

[Shem Kerr]

I have no problem with the speed of development of the KineRAW-S35 (tm) . It seems an entirely appropriate speed: not lagging behind.
I thank Dan Hudgins for his thorough posts; and I encourage both him and the Kineraw (tm) team. Kind regards.

[Dan Hudgins]

Thanks for the comments.

You can feel free to email Kinefinity.com (sm) at the email on their web site at any time to give them encouragement and to make suggestions as they are interested to here any concerns people may have about their products and support for various work-flows and lens mounts etc.

They have been making steady progress over the last several years on this camera project and are close to having the KineRAW-S35 (tm) get out of the lab. Some test cameras are already out in the field being used for firmware testing and build some test footage to share.

I hope to have some more CinemaDNG (tm) test footage to post on Vimeo, and to send the Cineform (tm) copy to them so they can post shots in Cineform (tm) raw for people to download and play with in their own work-flow. The S35 camera can shoot CinemaDNG (tm) for full uncompressed mode, or in compressed Cineform (tm) that is wavelet like RED (tm)'s REDCODE (tm), or it can shoot BOTH at the same time for using the Cineform (tm) as a proxy or just to get the DNG to archive for later use, which is what I will try to to so the Cineform (tm) can be shared while I work on grading the DNG using my "freeish" DI system.

The images that I have seem so far look quite good, and the EI/ISO range is from about 80 to 5120 so far, by using 288 degree shutter rather that 144 you in effect gain another T/ stop over shooting 35mm movie film so that gives an equivalent of ISO 10240 film, maybe.

[Dan Hudgins]

More sample Cineform (tm) footage from Kinefinity.com (sm).

You may post it on forum,

http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-099-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-112-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-121-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-023-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-028-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-071-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-094-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.look

All these are cineform mov clips shot on KineRAW-S35, and need to install Cineform decoder on your PC or MAC to playback, Cineform Decoder download link:

Cineform « Neo Player Download

You need to install the *.look 3D-LUT into the Cineform (tm) codec AFTER you install it on your computer, there is a program in the Cineform (tm) tools folder that you drag and drop it onto then it says something like "one LUT loaded" maybe so you know its installed and then the color should look right in Quicktime (tm) when you play the clips.

The one's I shot are 2048x1080 so you need a 2K monitor to view them 1:1 pixel for best results. Click on the Cineform (tm) icon on the task-bar to select the playback quality, try maximum quality and sharpness to view as sharp lenses were used to make the clips I sent them for shared viewing.

[Dan Hudgins]

Kinefinity.com (tm) asked me to post some new links to the sample Cineform (tm) *.mov files and the 3D-LUT and decoder codec,

Quote:[ Here are more Cineform RAW clips shot on KineRAW-S35; we would like to
share with you.

http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-011-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-099-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-112-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-121-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-023-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-028-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-071-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-094-A1.mov

When downloading the files, Attention that the server has limited
connections, so please download one file at one time.

Cineform Firstlight/Davinci Resolve/Speedgrade/Scratch could be used
for grading/rendering. May use the Cineform decoder
settings-->Demosaic Type-->advanced details to make image look
sharper.

Need to install Cineform decoder on your PC or MAC to playback,
Cineform Decoder download link:
http://cineform.com/gopro-cineform-decoder

]

You will also need to drag and drop the 3D-LUTs onto the Cineform (tm) LUT tool in the Cineform (tm) program folder,

http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.cube
http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.look

The 3D-LUT are mated to the ISO and K value used when shooting so need to be installed for the clips above to play with the right "one light" color correction, the look group used is intended for having the shots graded, so graded results would look better. Various monitoring LUT can be loaded into the camera and selected with the encoder knob from a quick button menu labeled "look", and depending on which "look" is selected the camera makes a corresponding 3D-LUT in each shot folder, in this case the same "look" was used for all my test shots so far, that are linked to above for those MOV files.

[Ted Ramasola]

Dan Chung video interview on the KineRAW S35.

It is mentioned it will cost around 6,000 US.

Dslrnewsshooter interview: KineRAW S35 digital cinema camera from China on Vimeo

[Dan Hudgins]

They plan on being at BIRTV 2012 again this year, you can email them to get the booth number maybe. They will be talking to people interested in purchase and bulk purchase and probably showing some of the many Cineform (tm) clips and uncompressed TIF files to interested people so if you are going to BIRTV 2012 be sure to look for their booth.

I have some uncompressed frames from the footage I have been shooting if you want to look at the 2048x1080 DCP size frames on your 2K monitor to see how the output of my free de-Bayer program looks so far (I'm using the unreleased v0.07 currently).

[Dan Hudgins]

Kinefinity.com (sm) have booth 2B222 at BIRTV 2012,

BIRTV2012

Quote: [The Must-Attend Industry Exhibition in Asia

BIRTV is China's most prestigious exhibition in the industry of radio,film and TV and a key part of China International Radio Film & Television Exposition.It is also the only one of such exhibitions which gains support from China government and is listed number one among the supported exhibitions in China's 12th Five Year's Developing Plan of Culture.]

They are also revising their web site now, the new web site will have sample images and footage you can download for compatibility testing with your own work-flow.

Here is a map showing the booth location,

http://www.birtv.com/upfiles/201208/2B0801.pdf

They will maybe have two bodies there to show and be able to answer questions in person.

[Stewart Chong]

I will check out the camera there, and 1st time I was at BIRTV back in 1989 !!!
CHINA not yet has their Imaging technology from their old days use 3-Tubes / 3-CCDs / S35 CMOS in professional, broadcast and Digital Cinema Cameras.

CHINA used German / Japanese and now US 's xK camera etc.

Time for CHINA to team up with some Custom Sensor design teams to build more competitive Camera for the world. ;-)

Raw = uncompressed

Stewart Chong
Hong Kong
CHINA
Home Page
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