Nikon D800 with video features
Official Nikon Announcement:
http://www.nikon.com/news/2012/0207_dslr_01.htm A new Full Frame player in the field of HDSLRs. If it has the essentials of the D4, its worth considering price wise. It has the option to select FX or DX mode like the D4. Yummy. The OLPF must be aggressive video wise since there is mention of releasing a D800E version without the OLPF. |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
Uncompressed HD and a 36MP still camera - what more does one need?
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link to site with "official photos":
Google Translate |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
For those of you who know video, is 8 bit 4;2;2 a good signal.
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its essentially very usable. ;)
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and its now in DPreview;
Nikon D800 and D800E 36MP full-frame DSLRs announced: Digital Photography Review OFFICIAL Nikon announcement: (updated first post) http://www.nikon.com/news/2012/0207_dslr_01.htm |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
Hey Ted, thanks for that info. What do you think of the body without the AA filter for video.
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Re: Nikon D800 with video features
Without the AA filter, it would have the apparent sharpness improvement since an AA essentially "softens" the image.
There are companies that do Filter removal for existing DSLRs and the improvement I saw is significant for stills. However, the moire patterns can be seen especially in grills and bricks. I have even installed a third party OLPF on my 5D just to reduce these moire and aliasing. I wouldn't consider the D800E(w/o AA filter) if my usage is for video. But even in stills, you would not be greatly served without an OLPF under "conventional" uses like portraiture or weddings. |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
a couple of sample films posted with some whip pans and fast motion;
Nikon D800 D-SLR Camera | High Dynamic Range Camera |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
I'm DSLR illiterate.
Is this camera better for video recording compared to a Nikon D4, Canon 5D, or any other DSLR? Will it still be susceptible to overheating in video mode? Will it still have moire problems? Does it record in-camera in 4:2:2? Are the audio levels manually controllable? ETA - I think it records 4:2:2 to an external recorder through the HDMI port. Audio seems to be manually controlled. |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
Glen
So far on paper and based on their sample video.. Quote:
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plus 1080 HDMI out and simultaneous LCD and HDMI viewing. |
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Ted, if you are correct, this is quite the cinema DSLR. I like the broadcast quality video (assuming it is truly recorded in-camera). 4:2:2 is...wow. And for around $3,000.
All that's missing are XLR inputs. |
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Re: Nikon D800 with video features
Some digs:
3 crop modes: FX(35.9X24) in Video mode 91% of the width 1.2(30x19.9) DX(23.4X15.6) BOth CF SDXC cards When recording from HDMI, the cards record below 720p resolution PRIce: $3000!!!! $3200 without the OLPF |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
It's just one example (an on-line one at that), but I wasn't entirely impressed with the video on the web site (the biker/doctor). For a large sensor it didn't seem particularly sensitive to light (maybe slow lenses used?) Will have to see more to assess its potential obviously. The specs are pretty eye-catching. I wonder if this'll get the train rolling on a 5D Mark III.
UPDATE: Just saw it again on this Vimeo link above and it looked better than the one on the web site (not so dark). Still want to see more though. |
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I think they had to balance it to be not too aggressive to be still sharp for most lenses and for most scenarios in 1080 mode. I can see some images from Nikon dslrs where they remove the OLPF and its sharper but moire starts creeping in grills and such. Also I can learn from the mosaic OLPF I placed in my 5D that its aggressive enough to remove aliasing and moire in almost all situations but some lenses 20mm and wider get problematic. So looking at a lot of brick wall scenes in the Joyride video, I think the OLPF is useful enough for most but the most densest of patterns. |
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The biker video looks fine for low light to me, but it's impossible to properly assess moire/detail with that coarse Vimeo compression. If the picture is detailed and suppresses moire/aliasing it looks like a very promising camera at that price. |
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The Nikon D800 has an OLPF and this must be optimized for video since they removed it in the D800E which is targeted to landscape photographers and those demanding very sharp looking highly detailed stills. An OLPF, by its very nature, is intended to soften a bit high freq details to avoid aliasing and moire. They are also releasing software that handles the moire that comes with these images. |
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OLPFs exist even in cameras not meant for video. But in todays marketplace where video is common place in convergence devices, they probably had to deal with compromises. So i think they had to go aggressive on the d800 OLPF since they now give the buyer the option. I really which it would be like an ND filter implementation which you can flip on or off like the ND on the C300.
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Is amazing that even in DX mode the resolution is 15+ megapixels (if I didn't make any calculating errors). On par with D4. In a way is a D4X with D700 price tag. The only thing that remains to be seen is how the achieved the downscaling of the pixels for the HD image.
Anyway right now is a serious contender for the price/performance crown. With that MP count they could have done 4k the c300 (or David Heath) way: (3840X2160)x4=33.1MP |
Re: Nikon D800 with video features
From the BHphoto video overview:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842926-REG/Nikon_D800_D_800_SLR_Digital_Camera.html "Thanks to Nikon's latest image-processing optimizations, the monumental power of 36.3 megapixels transforms to sharp, exquisitely rendered videos. Expect exceptionally smooth gradation in blue skies, with minimum block noise and beautifully natural movement rendered clearly and sharply. The D800's intelligent image sensor reads out movie images at faster rates than ever, significantly reducing the rolling shutter distortion that can occur during panning shots or when shooting fast-moving lateral subjects like trains. Thanks to EXPEED 3, your movies will take on a distinctive look of their own, even with dimly lit scenes." On the OLPF: "Optical Low-Pass Filter Optimized for Sharpness... Finding the right balance between benefits and sacrifices is the key to higher image quality, and that is what the D800's optical low-pass filter delivers. As a result, the astounding 36.3 megapixels unleash their potential through an optimized balance between sharpness and effectively prevented moiré and false color. Furthermore, the multi-layer structure of the D800 low-pass filter utilizes layers of antireflective coating that have been optimized for the camera, contributing to sharper and clearer images" |
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I mean, just speculating here, but why 91%? |
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If Nikon could develop their own HD Codec they would dominate the video DSLR market. They are still limited to 24Mbps.
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The moire issue is - as usual - way overblown. Moire might be the biggest non-issue in the camera world - "normal" people could care less. Don't shoot a movie about brick buildings or stripped shirts, and you're golden. A bigger concern is the "video-ish" look of the footage. Some bits looks absolutely cinematic, other bits like pure video (like when he grabs his keys off the night stand). And that's something not happening b/c of video compression. On paper, this looks like a great camera. But Nikon doesn't exactly have a stellar rep for shooting video... but here's hoping. |
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Nikon is bringing some heat to Canon. Competition is great news for the consumer.
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It is a lot more hardware & user interface issues that are the pain of HDSLR shooting life right now. |
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New music video using the D800, produced by Nikon (apparently):
Looks pretty darn good to my eyes... |
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Thanks for posting this John. This looks very nice and I bet they did use an external recorder.
I laughed at the very first comment below the video. Pretty much sums it up. This looks better than a 5DMKII to me. The moto-doctor video did not do much for me from a detail point of view. Things are heating up for sure! |
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(I'm afraid I'm only reporting what has been happening for quite a while. It's just that Canon were the first (and so far only?) to publicly say what they were doing - and the first to do it properly, by which I mean with a quad-HD (3840x2160) sensor.) But joking apart, when I saw the 33/36megapixel specs it was my first thought. It's pretty well understood now what Canon do in the C300, thanks to their openness. Each output pixel is formed from four photosites of a 2x2 block. Easy processing, (hence low power consumption) all photosites used (hence good sensitivity) and must give "true" 1920x1080 resolution. The C300 uses 2x2 blocks. It's easy enough to see that a very similar process could be easily done with 4x4 blocks to get good 1080 video *IF* the sensor dimensions were (4x1920)x(4x1080). That magic photosite count becomes 7680x4320, or 33,177,600 photosites. A "33 megapixel chip". BUT - that only becomes true for HD video - 16:9 aspect ratio. A still camera is likely to have a 3:2 chip and use a 16:9 window for video. Therefore I'd expect the full (3:2) dimensions to be more like 7680x5120 - or about 39 megapixel. But according to the spec on the dpreview site, the max resolution still image from the camera is 7360 x 4912, which works out to be 36,512,320. Since the spec says "Effective pixels 36.3 megapixels" we can be pretty sure that is the actual sensor size. "So near and yet so far" is my reaction to that.......... :-) As far as the OLPF goes, then if that was optimised for video, the camera would be effectively hopeless as a stills camera - and that is what it is primarily designed for! There is more than one way to skin a cat though, and reading EVERY photosite every frame of a multi megapixel sensor would change the rules significantly as far as moire was concerned. (It's because each output pixel would be formed by 8 green sites, 4 red, 4 blue - hence natural averaging of the too fine detail that would otherwise cause moire.) The main reason DSLRs suffer from moire is that they (so far) all have to ignore a percentage of the photosites to achieve a fast enough frame rate - hence the averaging is much less than ideal, hence moire. Initially they would skip several lines at a time (really bad), more recently they directly read in 2x2 blocks (as the C300) but (unlike the C300!) skip every other block horizontally and vertically. The other aspect of that is sensitivity. Missing 3 out of 4 blocks means the sensiitivity will be about 2 stops down on a camera where no skipping happens, after allowances are made for overall sensor size. |
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The only way a camera with such high resolution could deliver an artifact free downsize, is if it read pixel data from every photosite, as David wrote in his post above. I highly doubt there are any cost-effective processors out there that could handle a 36mp signal @ 30fps and down-sample it to HD in real-time, using a quality interpolation method. |
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The GH2 is the only DSLR I've used to date that adequately suppresses moire and aliasing, and produces a detailed image. I'm waiting for a FF camera that can offer the same detail with good control of artifacts. There's crazy moire at 3.30 in the music vid... I'm hoping this is something to do with Youtube... but it looks disturbingly like 5DII style moire to me - compression doesn't do this does it? |
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By that, "optimised for video" implies reducing the definition to something suitable for 1920x1080. Great for video - but your expensive 36 megapixel DSLR then starts to simulate a 2-3 megapixel in stills mode! Quote:
Hence the thought of the 33.1 megapixel 16:9 sensor. Yes, all the photosites need to be read every frame, but it should be possible to use binning techniques to reduce that workload without compromise. Most importantly, no deBayering or up/downconversion are necessary to get a 1080 signal. |
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I heard a great analogy recently whereby moire was compared to food going off (!) Leave some food past it's sell by date and you may get two effects. First is a change in appearance/taste/smell - the analogy here is moire you can easily see with the eye. Second is growth of something which will give you food poisoning - but may not be obvious when you eat it. And it's the same principle with moire. You can get artifacts which are hardly visible on camera footage - but can play havoc with compression systems further down the chain. Hence footage can look great straight off the camera - but degrade far worse than expected down the production chain. Exactly as some bad food may seem OK to eat - but make you seriously ill a few hours later. That's why "normal" people DO need to care about moire and food hygiene - even if they don't seem a problem at first viewing or eating! (If all that seems unlikely, then the characteristic of moire which can cause many problems is that it "ripples backward" in the opposite direction to the object it's associated with. That can confuse coders at low bitrates which use motion analysis - an object can seem to be moving two ways at the same time - and waste bitrate in the coding. Put simply, the end result has the appearance of what it would have been if no moire and a lower bitrate used for the encode.) |
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Great insight David. Why it pays to go a bit deeper and know the tech behind stuff in this day and age.
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This camera is exactly what a ton of people hoped Canon would do and is exactly WHY I am so disappointed with Canon.
Okay, so the D800 isn't perfect - but for $3K? Compared to the Canon C300 for $16K?!!! Come on folks, what I saw on those clips looked darn good to me. AND, though this is far from a done deal, there will be tons of hackers and programmers getting inside and *possibly* having some cool D800 mods. The camera has USB 3 out. If enabled, we could be recording RAW at 12bit or maybe 10bit S log. Who knows? The thing is, at $3K, that means for around $10K I can put together a whole kits that will do just fine. It really sticks in my crawl that Canon, with what it has done with both the price points of both the C300 and DSLRs, has FORCED me to move to Nikon. That is not what I wanted, but there it is. Congratulations Nikon. Not to understate it, but you just handed Canon its *$$. |
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The ball is definately on Canon's side of the net,
Well Canon ?????? P.S. C300 footage looked much better. |
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"P.S. C300 footage looked much better. "
Jeez, it better - it costs more then 5 times as much. |
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As to "why 91%", then I suspect if so it is actually 91.3%. :-) No, not a joke, it's just that 91.3% will be 6720 - and that is 3.5x 1920. It's hard to believe that's a coincidence, and may be a strong pointer to the internal workings in video mode. It would infer 960x540 7x7 blocks of photosites, and various ways of dealing with them could be worked which would all give direct 1920x1080 output - no up or down conversion. Theoretically, that should give pretty good results. Not as good as my hypothetical 7680x4320 chip, and certainly not as good as the C300 (for video!) - but possibly better than much other video from "designed for still" sensors. Regarding moire/aliasing etc, then after what I said previously about the REAL problems with moire being it's ability to screw up compression, then it's worth mentioning again that it's the MOTION of the aliases that really causes the problems, the way they move counter to the real objects. For STILL images this is obviously nowhere near as big a problem, any aliases may just make edges look a little "busy". |
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