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Old April 15th, 2012, 08:30 PM   #46
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

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Originally Posted by David Chilson View Post
We now have officially entered the “Twilight Zone” (...)I can pull off your subject speaking into the camera “crop” in camera with my $2995 XF100 while filming. Re-program the front push-button dial and you can go back and forth between wide and 1.5X till the cows come home or your audience gets sick of it.
Actually this response seems more 'Twilight Zone' to me. First off, punching in to the center of the shot isn't likely to work very well unless your subject is perfectly centered, which isn't usually the case for me, and wouldn't work at all in situations like cutting from a wide two shot to a cu of one person. Whereas in post you can completely reframe each shot with a 4k source based on what was appropriate for the particular shot.

But that aside, you're saying that as you shoot an interview you can consistently predict when you'll need to cut to a different angle? Frankly, that's amazing to me, and we clearly work differently. When I shoot an interview I usually cut most of it out in post. When I need to cut in the middle of a shot, and I either don't have or it's inappropriate to cut away to b-roll to cover it I'll often cut to the other angle rather than have a jump cut. I may be wrong in assuming anyone else works that way, but personally I can't imagine how I would predict exactly when those cuts would happen ahead of time, on the fly, during the shoot, every time.

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IMHO anybody who would prefer the DSLR form factor in ANY situation (other than for the LOOK) doesn’t own a real video camera. And if you come up with one situation where a DSLR is better I can come up with ten where it’s lacking.
Honestly, this is the real reason for my original post. There seems to be a common attitude recently when discussing many of these new cameras that if it doesn't fit into one's particular workflow or needs then the manufacturer is crazy for releasing that particular camera at all. I'd venture there are more ways of working in the video world now than there ever were, and we've got an incredibly diverse range of cameras to meet any one of those. Almost your entire post is dedicated to explaining why anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong. I get it - the DSLR form factor doesn't work for you. There are plenty of other cameras to chose from, and you've clearly found ones that do work for you - but that has nothing to do with what anyone else might choose, it doesn't mean that their choice is any less valid than your own, and it certainly doesn't mean there's no use for a 4k DSLR if you're not delivering in 4k today.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:39 AM   #47
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

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Originally Posted by Tony Davies-Patrick View Post
I truly cannot understand why the EOS 1D-C is ONLY 24fps (which is mainly US & Japanese broadcast), because Europe mainly shoots in 25p for broadcast and do not mix it with 24p. Surely for that price they will bring out a 1D-C body able to use 25p at full rez? Without it, I doubt if many, including the BBC, will even entertain it.
I agree. I originally ASSUMED this was just an oversight in the marketing blurb but I've just seen an Engadget video taken at NAB of the camera where near the end they show the LCD with "all" the frame options displayed. Clear as day, 25p is not on the list. Canon must be bonkers! I'm sure the DvInfo crew attending NAB will quiz them on this!
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:46 AM   #48
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

I know on a 550D you need to switch the camera to Pal in order to use 25P this is done in a separate menu to the rest of the frame rate options. Perhaps there is Pal/NTSC buried deep in the menus?
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:48 AM   #49
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

Good thought Sam. Hope you're right!
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Old April 16th, 2012, 05:59 AM   #50
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

The EOS-1D C does not allow you to change it via the internal Menu. The specs detail that it has Pal 25P in all the lower resolutions except the highest 4K which is ONLY 24fps.

It details all the Pal options, yet nothing for the highest video resolution. Very strange for Canon to do this...unless the spec-sheets are incorrect.

Canon official details NO 25P:

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/...c_explained.do

Almost 80% of the world use 25P (and Secam), including Bollywood in India (which is bigger than Hollywood in films produced), Australia, South Africa, Europe etc...

Latest news update from those lucky enough to handle the EOS-1D C is that you definitely need to drop to 2K to use 25P.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 07:16 AM   #51
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

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Originally Posted by Tony Davies-Patrick View Post
The EOS-1D C does not allow you to change it via the internal Menu. The specs detail that it has Pal 25P in all the lower resolutions except the highest 4K which is ONLY 24fps.

Almost 80% of the world use 25P (and Secam), including Bollywood in India (which is bigger than Hollywood in films produced), Australia, South Africa, Europe etc....
Why are you so surprised? This whole EOS-C evolution is driven by Canon USA, their engineers and American cinematographers, etc. Not wanting to generalise, but USA folk can be quite insular sometimes... "The World" is often seen as just USA only.

Reminds me of the 'international' (sic) competition ran by Canon USA and Vimeo a couple of years back, "The Story Beyond The Still" which was... Open to US residents only!

It's a crying shame. Look at who Sony recruited to tell their engineers what developments they wanted to see out of the FS700... An international team of cinematographers consulted. You really need that input to engineer something for international use. What did we get? 50/60Hz switchable, etc...

You gather a group of American DoPs, engineers together to brainstorm the developments required for the next upgrade, you're hardly going to get one of them standing up saying, "We'll need 25fps in there too for our British counterparts!"
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Old April 16th, 2012, 07:27 AM   #52
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

Off topic. Kris, if your anywhere near the runway at Gatwick a Virgin plane has just made an emergency landing there - evacuation with chutes deployed etc. No word yet on any details yet. Hope all got off OK (these things usually result in the odd broken leg).
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Old April 16th, 2012, 07:41 AM   #53
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

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..."We'll need 25fps in there too for our British counterparts!"...
I can imagine someone standing up in the Houses of Parliament, shouting "Here, here!" :)
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Old April 16th, 2012, 10:44 AM   #54
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

Can't believe I'm reading this "nationalistic" stuff. Is it really necessary, Kris? Jesus, haven't we learnt yet, take away the accent and the address and we're all the same.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 12:39 PM   #55
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

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take away the accent and the address and we're all the same.
Except for frame rates.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #56
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

Is the lack of 25p such a deal breaker or is it just an inconvenience? The difference between 24p & 25p is only 4% & for years we in PAL-land have been viewing 24fps Hollywood movies on DVD speeded up 4% & nobody noticed. I could understand if the camera only had the old NTSC 30/29.97 rate then it would be a really big issue. The only real problem that I can see is if you wanted to intercut footage of the same scene shot simultaneously with other cameras that only shot 25p (e.g. a PAL Canon XF305 without the $400 24p/30p firmware upgrade).
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Old April 16th, 2012, 12:58 PM   #57
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

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Originally Posted by Kris Koster View Post
It's a crying shame. Look at who Sony recruited to tell their engineers what developments they wanted to see out of the FS700... An international team of cinematographers consulted. You really need that input to engineer something for international use. What did we get? 50/60Hz switchable, etc...
I was wondering who it was who decided on an ugly box covered in innumerable little buttons
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Originally Posted by Kris Koster View Post
You gather a group of American DoPs, engineers together to brainstorm the developments required for the next upgrade, you're hardly going to get one of them standing up saying, "We'll need 25fps in there too for our British counterparts!"
Evidently that is exactly what they did with the C300/C500. Previous Canon camcorders were not world cameras by default but either PAL or NTSC (or HD equivalent) e.g. to upgrade a PAL XF305 to shoot 24p/30p costs around $400 & similarly to upgrade an NTSC XF305 to shoot 25p.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #58
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

I like the EOS 1D C for some unaccountable reason.

The codec is easy to manipulate with either still image processing tools, or even homebrew code. (Reading JPEG files is straightforward.) It writes onto commonly available media. And it's a compact device. In fact I've got a couple of ideas where this would fit really well.

I'd be interested to know what the bit rate is, and does it suffer from rolling shutter.

As for the 25 fps thing, I wouldn't be surprised if that turns up in a firmware update. It doesn't significantly more bandwidth than 24 fps, so I doubt that the camera's hardware is the limiting factor.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 06:07 AM   #59
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

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This 4K fever for 98% of us on here won't mean squat for years to come and even longer with the general public. Almost 50% of tv's sold are 720P.

This reasoning reminds me a bit of the early 90s when quite a few were perplexed to why we started developing tools for 24bit/96kHz audio. Their argument back then was that the 24/96 was just a fad "since no one could possibly hear the difference between it and the established 16/48 standard". I.e., not realizing how useful such dense & linear material would be in post processing. The same goes for video shot in 4K -- in post you'll have more leverage to crop, zoom and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is "only" 1080p.

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Old April 18th, 2012, 01:55 PM   #60
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Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K

Yes Peer, but just like then, people can't hear the difference between 44k, 48k, or 96k. As a producer I've been involved in a number of blind tests like this comparing the highest spec audio gear, preamps etc.

David's point is still the most relevant. For the vast majority of people buying any and all of the cameras and post gear we're discussing, the end result of their work will be shown at significantly lower res than 1080p let alone 4k, either regional, local TV, and more and more web distribution.

Not that deeper color space and bit depth aren't important - they are. When I produce a project there's a good chance it will be broadcast in HD, SD, on web and shown on large screens at events.

That's where a camera like the BM looks promising with great latitude and color space. 4k has real value, but in the list of priorities to 95% of the camera market it's just a gimmick right now simply because the work that they're producing and distributing will not benefit from it in a practical space.

We do a ton of post and grading and pro res 4:2:2 does everything anyone needs for anything from broadcast down.
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