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Old July 23rd, 2012, 01:10 PM   #46
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

PMW-200 XDCAM the looks of the lens and EVF are very very similar to ones in EX1R.

It is the one we are talking about?

I don't know about the performance but the form design is very disappointing.

Last edited by Koravik Rakpetchmanee; July 23rd, 2012 at 01:18 PM. Reason: added
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 02:16 PM   #47
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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Well, since it's an announcement from Sony's XDCAM folks, it certainly will not be AVCHD.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 02:35 PM   #48
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

This PMW 100 seems to have an EX1 lens. It's supposedly a 1/2 inch sensor too.

The big questions are this:

3 sensors or just 1?
10 bit SDI out or 8bit?

If it is a 3 sensor with 10bit out than its clearly a replacement for the EX1r.

I got a feeling in my gut that Sony will make this. Single 1/2 inch with 8 bit SDI only. Mostly because they still have the EX3 floating out there. A 3 sensor, 10bit PMW 200 could replace the EX1 but not the EX3 and it would be strange to leave it hanging out there all alone 4:2:0 like that.

Who knows?
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 05:32 PM   #49
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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A 3 sensor, 10bit PMW 200 could replace the EX1 but not the EX3 and it would be strange to leave it hanging out there all alone 4:2:0 like that.
Well, there might be a "PMW300" out before too long to replace the EX3......? As far as specs go, I think you're focussing on the wrong things, it's the internal codec that most people feel could do with the upgrade, rather than the HD-SDI out. In that case, what's realistically needed is XDCAM 422 50Mbs - it's what people have been asking for, and it's why some EX1 sales have been lost to Canon and the XF305. If the rumours are to be believed, things are looking good.

Put a fully approved codec with 3 1/2" chips into a package this size and it becomes a clear winner over both the XF305 and Panasonics HPX250, both of which have been able to claim a codec advantage in the past to partly offset their front end disadvantages.

Except for the most noise free cameras (nothing in the 1/3" or 1/2" realm) then 10 bit doesn't really offer a lot - all it does is waste 20% of the bitrate. And if you've got the fully approved codec onboard, then less need to use an external recorder, so even less point. 10 bit really only comes into it's own with something like s-log, something intended to need grading
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 06:28 PM   #50
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

Agreed.

I do hope this is a 3 sensor camera. It seems that using a 4:2:2 codec behind a small, single bayer sensor is defeating the purpose by a little bit. In the PMW 100, the codec seems to be the biggest selling point. Sony didn't even decide to use it's "best" (by Sony marketing materials) EXMOR sensor. The PMW 100 only carries a small EXMOR, not the back illuminated EXMOR-R sensor. As we all know, a larger EXMOR-R sensor is used on many Handycams today as well as the NX30 and NX70. A smaller and older technology sensor was chosen for the PMW 100 and I cant understand why. (unless the Sony marketing materials that state how back illuminated -R sensors are that much better,....are not at all true)

Lately, I have been playing with Avid DNxHD 10 bit files compared to XDCAM EX. When stretching and pulling colors in post, I have noticed a noticeable difference between the two. Especially while using noise reduction plugins. Off my EX1r, I cant say it's a "drastic" difference but it's easily "noticeable".

I'm very excited about this PMW 2000. Let's see how Sony protects it's upper models from this baby. Let's see how far they went in crippling that PMW 200. It's a necessary tactic and one that Sony does very well.

I'm also curious to see if this is the intended replacement for the EX1r.

I can't wait for Alister to get his hands on it! ;-)

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Old July 24th, 2012, 04:43 AM   #51
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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3 sensors or just 1?
PMW-100: one 1/2.9-inch CMOS
PMW-200: three 1/2-inch CMOS

Here you can download the manual of both camcorders in English: http://cinescopophilia.com/wp-conten...07/PMW-200.pdf
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Old July 24th, 2012, 06:47 AM   #52
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
This PMW 100 seems to have an EX1 lens. It's supposedly a 1/2 inch sensor too.

The big questions are this:

3 sensors or just 1?
10 bit SDI out or 8bit?
If it is a 3 sensor with 10bit out than its clearly a replacement for the EX1r. I got a feeling in my gut that Sony will make this. Single 1/2 inch with 8 bit SDI only. Mostly because they still have the EX3 floating out there. A 3 sensor, 10bit PMW 200 could replace the EX1 but not the EX3 and it would be strange to leave it hanging out there all alone 4:2:0 like that. Who knows?

I assume you meant to say "PMW-200" because the PMW-100 has already been released and it is only one 1/3" sensor.

Sony's SDI output is always 10-bit on all of their cameras -- even the EX1 and PMW-100. So there's no chance a new camera is going to be 8-bit no matter how many sensors it has or what size they are.

David's comments are on the right track.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #53
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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Put a fully approved codec with 3 1/2" chips into a package this size and it becomes a clear winner over both the XF305 and Panasonics HPX250, both of which have been able to claim a codec advantage in the past to partly offset their front end disadvantages.
In my experience, clear winner is an overstatement. I had an EX-1 with a Nanoflash for two years. Switched to an XF300 and like the images I am getting a lot more with the XF300. Better detail in finished products (DVD & Blu-ray), ergonomics and a better overall look. I could never get past a faint posterized/plastic look to skin and some colors. Personal preference but outside of the EX 1/2" series having better light gathering abilities the EX is a really good choice out of three or soon to be four with the JVC 600 series.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 08:11 AM   #54
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

the sensor will be 1/2". whether there is 1 or 3 is another matter. or some strange new technology where 1 sensor does 3 things..
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Old July 24th, 2012, 09:43 AM   #55
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

An s35 sensor in an ENG package using XDCAM 4:2:2-50 is a "big thing". 1/2" 3mos using XDCAM 4:2:2-50 may be a big thing for Sony and the 1/2" chips in the "PMW-200" distinguishes them from the pack but it's somewhat not such a "big thing" unless it's the price vs the competition that's the "big thing". IMHO
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Old July 24th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #56
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
I assume you meant to say "PMW-200" because the PMW-100 has already been released and it is only one 1/3" sensor.

Sony's SDI output is always 10-bit on all of their cameras -- even the EX1 and PMW-100. So there's no chance a new camera is going to be 8-bit no matter how many sensors it has or what size they are.

David's comments are on the right track.



Sorry,...you are right, I did mean "PMW 200".

This is potentially a HUGE development. Rumors are coming in that this PMW 200 is a THREE sensor camera with 10bit SDI out.

If this is the case than we can certainly and finally call it the true successor to the beloved EX1r! (I knew the day would come "some day")

Also, given how Sony has made vast improvements in recent years with sensor readout, post processing and noise reduction, we should have very high exceptions for the PMW 200's image quality. Sony can do ALLOT more with 3 1/2 inch sensors today than they could 5 years ago.

Even bigger questions:

Does this mean that the EX 4:2:0 codec is "dead"?
Is the F3 the last "EX" codec camera that Sony will ever make?
Will "NXCAM" now be Sony's only 4:2:0 codec for future products?

Wow,..tomorrow could be one of those "The king is dead!" days...lol

Very very interesting.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 10:00 AM   #57
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

I agree. If its 3 sensors and basically just a codec upgrade to the EX1r then they'll sell shed loads anyway as it'll be a worthy upgrade (but hardly the next big thing as you rightly point out). But, if it has a single s35 sensor, then they'll need to build a new factory (and lots of warehouse/sheds all over the world) to supply the huge pent up demand - assuming they don't get a bit greedy on the pricing, Canon C300 style.

I guess we'll all know in 48hrs. Come on Sony, you already have all the important components of the jigsaw in your arsenal - and we know you can do it, if you really want to!!!

However, don't get too excited as yesterday at least one website claimed that they had found a translation of the specs on a Sony site stating it will be 1/2 inch XDCAM 422 - so I suspect that means an EX1r replacement/upgrade.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 11:51 AM   #58
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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I won't post a link to them as I know Chris doesn't do rumor sites etc.
Thank you! It is true, I will not give traffic to "rumor" sites. Sony will make it official very soon anyway. Much appreciated,
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Old July 24th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #59
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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In my experience, clear winner is an overstatement. I had an EX-1 with a Nanoflash for two years. Switched to an XF300 and like the images I am getting a lot more with the XF300.
The question must be whether that was down to line-up, or something intrinsic to the camera? Ten or more years ago, the "look" of a camera in this price range was defined by the manufacturer and had to be accepted. And different manufacturers had different preferences - no right or wrong, it was a matter of opinion.

But more recently cameras in this price range have a wide range of adjustment, as previously only used to be true for much higher end models. The default "look" of a camera now may differ out of the box by manufacturer, but if you prefer different, change the line-up - it's not the issue it used to be.
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Better detail in finished products (DVD & Blu-ray), ergonomics and a better overall look. I could never get past a faint posterized/plastic look to skin and some colors. Personal preference ........
A guess, but what you describe sounds like an excessive level of what I know as "coring", and I think Sony describe as "crispening". Benefits of it include lower noise level - downside is exactly what you describe, high contrast detail is strong, subtle detail removed. If that's true, it's a line up issue - not fundamental to the hardware.

Some factors ARE fundamental to the hardware, and 1/2" v 1/3" chips greatly affects some of these. Tims already mentioned lowlight and noise performance - also important are depth of field differences and minimum usable aperture due to diffraction.

In the past, when asked "what about the EX 1/2" chips?" Canon and Panasonic have been able to counter "they may be 1/3", but our cameras have a fully approved codec built in." Quite true. If Sony are bringing out a camera based on the EX, but with 50Mbs XDCAM, Canon and Panasonic lose maybe their strongest card overnight.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #60
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Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.

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Originally Posted by David Heath View Post

In the past, when asked "what about the EX 1/2" chips?" Canon and Panasonic have been able to counter "they may be 1/3", but our cameras have a fully approved codec built in." Quite true. If Sony are bringing out a camera based on the EX, but with 50Mbs XDCAM, Canon and Panasonic lose maybe their strongest card overnight.
Fully approved codec is no guarantee though; Sony have just had the PMW-100 with 50mbs XDCAM codec not approved by the BBC. Bearing in mind that the PMW-100 seemed to be the answer to the Canon XF-300 that was approved (with a smaller sensor).

Whether or not the sensor in this new Sony will pass is another issue, but it seems the approval is based on the total sum of the parts including, but not limited to, the codec.
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