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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:31 PM   #31
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petter Flink View Post
Canon U.S.A. : Professional Imaging Products : XA25

Canon site states:
1.8-2.8 for max f/stop so it's probably not that insane.

And on the HD-SDI it says:
HD/SD-SDI output provides an uncompressed signal at 1920x1080 resolution with 4:2:0 color sampling and embedded audio and time code.

HD-SDI
Video Standard: SMPTE 292M (1080i / 720p)
Embedded Audio Standard: SMPTE 299M
Time code Standard: SMPTE 12M

SD-SDI
Video Standard: SMPTE 259M (480i)
Embedded Audio Standard: SMPTE 272M
Time code Standard: SMPTE 12M
Ah ok that makes more sense. Still f2.8 is not bad at all for a 20x zoom. Some other cameras that reach a 20x get a bit darker than that so this is still very impressive. That is a 1 1/3 stop slower when zoomed in which is not all that bad.

That is a bummer about the HD-SDI being crippled to 4:2:0. There was a time when a raw signal from the DSP meant the raw signal. Now that DSP components are getting so sophisticated companies are able to bypass feeding the raw signal. Sad really that pretty much every HDV camera before this with component, HDMI or HD-SDI was 4:2:2. Even Canon's consumer cameras would give 4:2:2 via HDMI. I am going to assume the HDMI is also crippled since it would take too many resources to pass through the DSP in two different ways.

Companies seem hell bent on making sure the mainstream doesn't get 4:2:2. Lets hope this is a mistake or a typo. Still the camera is very impressive even without the 4:2:2 which honestly I doubt I would very much anyway. For compositing work I would prefer my GH2 anyway.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 10:05 PM   #32
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

I too was both impressed and some what confused on why they did add a HD-SDI to such a camera when they skipped so many other features and controls. But then if its neutered to 420 its no threat to their higher lines.
Perhaps we will see hacked/patched ones delivering 422 :)
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:17 PM   #33
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

Restricting the HD-SDI output to 4:2:0 looks to me like a pretty clear-cut attempt on Canon's part to protect sales of their XF and C-series cameras. The other sign that this is part of Canon's overall marketing and market segmentation strategy is the fact that the XA25 and XA20 can't do more than 35MB/s in MP4 format, while their XF and higher series of cameras can output 50MB/s.

Can't think of any other reason why Canon would deliberately impose such a limitation on their new XA-series camcorders.

Then again, since most of the stuff I shoot is documentary and event-related and output to the web, I'm not too worried about the lack of 4:2:2 colourspace or the maximum output capability of 28MB/s in AVCHD and 35MB/s in MP4.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 12:14 AM   #34
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

Why even put the SDI output on the camera if it is crippled? People in this market segment are most likely not using SDI monitoring and the 4:2:0 makes an external recorder useless as well.

All I can see is timecode use (if it has timecode sync). I have not read the entire spec sheet.

It has gotten to the point that one has a tough time trusting anything from the makers anymore. They twist things that used to be viewed as standardized, like lux ratings or true uncompressed...
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Old April 4th, 2013, 06:19 AM   #35
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
Where the heck did you read this? Companies hardly ever mention what the HDMI or SDI puts out.
I remember when the C100 was announced the initial specs said HDMI out was 4:2:0 but then after people screamed it was upgraded to 4:2:2 . either a correction or alteration. Perhaps history will repeat itself,

Last edited by Philip Lipetz; April 4th, 2013 at 08:44 AM.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 06:50 AM   #36
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

This AM the Canon Web page shows $2999 and $2499 as the estimated price points. The XA10 sits at $1999.99. Time will tell.

Is 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 just a matter of the DSP, or is it determined in this case by the actual CMOS sensor configuration?
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Old April 4th, 2013, 08:18 AM   #37
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

The XA10 on B&H is listed at $1699. $2999 Msrp is not far away from an XF100 which is listed at $2499.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 08:37 AM   #38
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

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Originally Posted by Don Palomaki View Post
This AM the Canon Web page shows $2999 and $2499 as the estimated price points.
Thanks Don, I've updated the DVi page at Canon USA Introduces XA25 and XA20 Professional HD Camcorders at DV Info Net

Guess they're still trying to figure out their pricing. Could become a daily routine!
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Old April 4th, 2013, 08:42 AM   #39
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

From the specs the XA20/25 appears to be two stops faster than the the XA10/XF100/XF300 sensor, and two stops less sensitive than the C100/300/500 sensor.

If the SDI out is truly only 4:2:0, which I doubt, then is the SDI so these can be linked to form an inexpensive 3D rig? That was a feature of the XF105, although seldom used.

Last edited by Philip Lipetz; April 4th, 2013 at 09:22 AM.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:13 AM   #40
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

Two stops seems like a lot. How did you come to this conclusion? If the XF300 would be at f5.6 the XA25 would be at f2.8?
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:20 AM   #41
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

Minimum illumination level on the XF100/300 sensor is 4.5 lux, on the C100/300/500 is 0.3 lux and on the XA20/25 sensor is 1.2 lux. Two stops between the XA20/25 and the other two sensors.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:31 AM   #42
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

Minimum listed lux on the XF100 is 1.6 in manual mode. F/1.2 is undoubtedly obtained on the new XA20 and 25 at manual settings as well.

We must be careful before posting specs and throwing numbers around so as not to confuse people.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:34 AM   #43
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

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Originally Posted by Philip Lipetz View Post
From the specs the XA20/25 appears to be two stops faster than the the XA10/XF100/XF300 sensor, and two stops less sensitive than the C100/300/500 sensor.

If the SDI out is truly only 4:2:0, which I doubt, then is the SDI so these can be linked to form an inexpensive 3D rig? That was a feature of the XF105, although seldom used.
It's mentioned clearly on the HD-SDI sublink in the product page itself:

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : XA25

This is the first time I've ever seen Canon deliberately mention HD-SDI output as specifically 4:2:0. Seems to me that they want to be clear on what this is.

This cam seems to be targeted at ENG use for one, so the purpose of this HD-SDI may not be so much for external recording, but rather the ability to feed live to a truck or deck.

But yes, crippling it to 4:2:0 on purpose still is unfortunate, but clearly is a move to protect the XF line.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:34 AM   #44
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

I just noticed that the HF-G30 drops the LAN-C plug that the HF-G10 sports. For me, this is a deal breaker.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:40 AM   #45
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Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders

And this morning they're showing $2499 and $2999 for the XA20 and XA25 respectively. Go figure.
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