New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

[Duane Adam]

Not much risk in trying one. If the camera doesn't cut it, you can sell it, possibly for more than retail if they're back ordered like the 2.5k.

Even though I ordered one I don't think this is a good all purpose camera. If I shot weddings for example I would probably use something else.

[Chris Barcellos]

Wow, the Vancouver contingent for DVInfo has really come down hard on Black Magic this week. Seems like there are some issues with this gear for them, so I would expect that they won't be availing themselves of the Black Magic offerings.

Despite that negative outlook, the reason this camera line is so popular in terms of discussion, if nothing else, is its basic feature set of high quality codec, accompanying software, and a decent speed sensor at a great price point. The sensor itself is actually usable for both shallow depth of field shooting, but can be set up too for much deeper depth of field. The new models add to the line. The market will buy it and even though there are certainly issues for each on various levels, the users will adapt. The only question is will those entrenched in something else adapt. The entrenched will be bitter because that is where their money is, but the question is will they adapt.

If that qualifies me as a fan boy, then I am one.

[Jim Martin]

Originally Posted by Duane Adam

I went back and re-read your post to see if I'm missing something. Did you really mean to say there is no audio system or battery in the BMPC? And that it must have external monitors and cages before it can be used? I understand you sell Canons but most here know those aren't accurate statements. BTW, the only difference between XLR and a 1/4" TRS balanced cables are the plugs, otherwise they're identical.

Duane-
What I'm saying is the internal battery is worthless in a professional environment so you will need either an Anton or IDX system for power. The 1/4" jack is also a non-professional connector and introducing adapters in audio usually means trouble....hiss, pops, etc. Same goes for touch screen monitors...more potential trouble.
The jist of my post was: in real production environments, there will be enough un-expected things or problems that are going to show up anyway. To add to that a camera that has a lot of extra stuff, including adapters, is upping your chances to have more problems....control what you can control, and not worry about the ones you can't so in that sense, the C100 is 100% ready to go.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

BTW- all these reasons that I have posted plus delivery issues, are why we passed on the camera for now...not because we are a Canon dealer.

[Duane Adam]

You're assuming everyone who buys the camera will be shooting 3 hours at a time. I won't and 90 minutes is plenty of battery time. Regarding 1/4" jacks not being "professional", patch bays in even the best recording studios are often 1/4" TRS balanced. The signal is identical to XLR so this is not an issue for me.

My priorities are capture quality and price. That makes the BMPC a pretty easy choice compared to the Canons, or at least it would seem so on paper.

[Jim Martin]

As you said, for your use it's fine....with day long shoots it's not. While 1/4" is fine in the studio, XLR is the standard for production.......and your last line says everything I'm talking about..."on paper"

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Charles Papert]

Jim:

It's a sticky wicket using the Canon C series cameras as a benchamrk example of what a "professional" camera should be. They themselves have an odd form factor that does not lend itself well to scaled-up production with bolt-on accessories. A camera should not require an oddball third party cage with mounting points, yet this camera was designed from the ground up to expect one (the Redrock was shown at the product rollout as you know). Instead of adhering to tried and true base-to-lens heights so that standard baseplates could be used, the camera was made arbitrarily tall so that mini rods just barely are accommodated by custom third party bases. And as soon as the camera is built out for production work with outboard battery and whatever accessories, one has to leave an air gap behind the camera to allow access to controls back there, a la DSLR's, which makes the camera longer. And worse of all: in that configuration, where the addition of outboard accessories which would be required for a professional production turn the camera into a shoulder-mounted setup--how does one monitor the image in daylight? No supplied Canon external viewfinder. This particularly trend baffles me. The XL series had them, damn, the Canon F1000s SVHS camcorder I bought in 1989 had one. The solution of using a third party like the Alphatron is not satisfactory. Camera manufacturers should be making systems, that work out of the box, so that they are "100% ready to go", not once you source a viewfinder from one company and a clutch mount from another and a cage from a third and a battery mount from another and so on and so on. A true production camera is, for instance, an Alexa, or the new Sony's, which have proper viewfinders and integrated pro battery solutions and mounting points and can go onto nearly any set out of the box (the Sonys do require a bit more help, true, but the basic form factor is still a lot smarter than the Canons).

I'm not saying the Canons are not good cameras. They are. I've used both the C100 and C300 with an EF lens in a simply handheld setup and they are fine. But they are NOT properly designed for higher end work that requires a big build-out, in my opinion. More so than the BMC, true, but I wouldn't hold them up as a gold standard.

[Jon Fairhurst]

I'd say Jim and Charles covered the LA (Vancouver, Chicago, NY..) perspective well. The BMCs aren't designed as a primary camera for high-end, pro shoots. For small-scale indies, the requirements aren't as strict.

As I see it, each of the BMCs offer unique capabilities at low price points. That's the real draw. Want RAW, cheap? BMC. Want 4K with a global shutter cheap? BMC. Want a really small, S16 1080p camera cheap? BMC.

I'm sure that these will find their way into high-end productions where they meet specific requirements. For instance, a global shutter, 4K crash cam has got to have some appeal. But as a primary camera on a big crew shoot? No - unless the combination of features and price solves an important, specific problem.

[Jim Martin]

Charles-
I'm 100% with you on your post....if you go back to my 1st post and what this whole thread was about is the C100 vs.BM...and all I've been saying is the C100 is more ready to go out of the box than the BM....and something I deal with everyday, the functionality of a given camera and how much more "gak" is needed to make it functional. Are the C series an Alexa, no...although I have been pushing the engineers to make one!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Duane Adam]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

Charles-
I'm 100% with you on your post....if you go back to my 1st post and what this whole thread was about is the C100 vs.BM...and all I've been saying is the C100 is more ready to go out of the box than the BM....and something I deal with everyday, the functionality of a given camera and how much more "gak" is needed to make it functional. Are the C series an Alexa, no...although I have been pushing the engineers to make one!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Actually it was the C300 vs BMPC. My point was that spending $14k or more for a none 4k camera in 2013 is something that doesn't make sense to me. It may to others, but without a doubt there will be several new 4k cameras coming out this year and next that are likely to put a sizable dent in the value of HD cameras like the C300.

[Jim Giberti]

I'm going to start at one end of the spectrum, and that is the one where I met all the folks I have here and at DVX.
The XL line and the DVX were the cameras that these sites were founded on. Cameras like the F55 and frankly even the $14k C300 are a totally different proposition from the cameras we were using then and now.

As Charles said, they were complete packages and with three XLs as our first purchases (before that we always rented $80k Sony SD cameras) we built a thriving professional business. Then I had two $40k Media 100 systems, today I have three new iMacs running $300 FCPX and we produce for high end clients around the country.

There is a huge market - this original place for example - for quality creative and production that simply doesn't require Hollywood production tools. And it's got nothing to do with indie film makers.

Based on this, I think anyone following camera development for the past two years can make one honest assumption: the company that is likely to deliver what this market was expecting to come in the past 3 - 4 years is BM not Canon.

While advanced creative tools like our computers and iPads etc. get better and more affordable, Canon went the complete other direction leaving the XL/DVX base without that logical next generation of camera.

Where's the XL3 with an interchangeable lens and BM quality sensor?
That's what this market has wanted for 5 years.
Where's the basic 60p on any of the cameras under 12k? Panasonic did it on a camera for $1200 and included 50mbs and 72mbs with resolution way better than the 5 line of DSLRs and closer to the C line.

To me these are simple facts and point to a strange direction from where we all were 10 years ago.

In just two years BM has proven to be a company listening, learning and advancing at a clip that simply dwarfs the Canons and Sonys.

They're the company that's likely to up the ergonomics to match the image a lot faster than Canon is to go the other way.

[David Knaggs]

Believe me, Duane. It's between the C100 and the BMD 4K.

I'm considering a purchase roughly around the $5-6K mark and they're the two I've been looking at. The C300 doesn't even come into it.

For me, it comes down to the two main reasons I listed in an earlier post on this thread. And I think that the pros and cons of each have already been well-debated in this thread. Each person has different needs and that will determine which way they go.

[David Knaggs]

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

Canon went the complete other direction leaving the XL/DVX base without that logical next generation of camera.

Hi Jim.
What is your opinion about the C100 for $5,499? (Or $6,099 with the 24-105mm f/4L lens.)

I've already got 3 cameras that will do 50/60p (if I need a bit of over-cranking), but I don't have a large sensor "video camera" that will deliver an outstanding image.

With the C100, Canon are offering a 4K sensor which gives a tremendous image at a 1080p output. Granted, a Ninja 2 (which I think has come down to something around $600 per a recent report?) would be best for greenscreen work, but I still think it's an outstanding offering in the $5-6K price range.

For the past 8 years, I've been shooting HD with JVC and Sony cameras, so I don't have a vested interest to "defend" Canon, but I personally don't think they've gone in "the complete other direction". Not when you look at the C100.

I do agree that it's been "nobbled" to not compete with the C300, so over-cranking and a higher bitrate codec are missing.

If you need serious over-cranking, the FS700 looks good.

If you need a 4K deliverable or 4K future-proofing, the BMD 4K looks outstanding for its price range.

If you want an outstanding 1080p image from a 4K sensor at 24/25/30p with all of the built-in features of a video camera that you normally "expect", the C100 from Canon is a very solid offering.

Just my two cents.

[Duane Adam]

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

Believe me, Duane. It's between the C100 and the BMD 4K.

I'm considering a purchase roughly around the $5-6K mark and they're the two I've been looking at. The C300 doesn't even come into it.

For me, it comes down to the two main reasons I listed in an earlier post on this thread. And I think that the pros and cons of each have already been well-debated in this thread. Each person has different needs and that will determine which way they go.

Was referring to the original recommendation of the C100 or C300 on page 6. The C300 never entered my possible list of choices either due to price and lack of 4k. I agree a camera needs to be tailored to your needs. I do (or at least attempt) high quality/ low volume projects so the high bitrate and quirks of the BMPC aren't an issue. I'd also rather have 4k and not need it than need it and not have it.

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Wow, the Vancouver contingent for DVInfos really come down hard on Black Magic this week. Seems like there are some issues with this gear for them, so I would expect that they won't be availing themselves of the Black Magic offerings.

Totally the opposite... As i said, I only give opinions on stuff I own. I've had a bmcc for a while now and have put in orders for multiples of both their new cameras.

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Originally Posted by Duane Adam

Canon C300, 1080... $14,000

BMCC, 4k Raw, global shutter...$3,995

I'm not understanding the thinking in suggesting the Canon.

Canon C300: 1080p,
#built in XLRs,
#phenomenal low light ability (so don't need ton of lights and one can immediately shoot without taking lot of time for lighting),
#great battery life,
#robust codec that can easily be graded using a laptop (so less computing power, quick delivery),
#a 64GB CF card goes on and on,
#good viewfinder/LCD and tools like waveform, zebra etc, No moire
#holds good rental value/overall value,
#Lovely files
#readily available

BMCC: 4K resolution, global shutter (so we hope the moire of the previous version is solved).
#Can't shoot outdoors as the battery will run out and you can't replace it. I guess you need some heavy anton bauer kind of system.

#expensive SSDs, carry truckloads of them. (add the cost)
#Not ready to shoot barebones as you need to rig it.
#You can't handhold it without any rigs due to the odd formfactor.
#No XLRs. So you have to use some kind of juicedLink type mixer (suggesting juicedLink due to lower cost).
#You can't change settings on the fly due to the odd design. So this camera can never be like the extension of your arm/body. You have to search and dive into the menu. So clearly you can't shot fast changing scenes.

#Most importantly, we haven't even seen any output from this production 4K camera. This sensor is different from the previous camera. So we only hear that dynamic range will be lower and sensitivity will be lower.

It is strange that just because of some specs and pricing, people are going ga ga over a company which still hasn't been able to deliver the previous camera even after a year.

Blackmagic has tried to divert the attention from their failure to deliver the version 1 camera by announcing two cameras. With such reputation (or lack of it) I am surprised that people are still running to pre-order.

If one is doing this for hobby then throwing 5-6 k for the BMC plus rig and accessories should be ok as any failure will not have any repercussions. Do that in a production environment and you lose your reputation for ever.

I had wanted the BMC version 1, but changed my mind due to the moire. Else, it would have worked along with my C300 in specific projects. There are channels and production houses who are asking me 720 and some for 1080i (not even 1080p). And here people are talking about 4K.

I am sure everybody is an adult here and hence entitled to their opinions and decisions. No point in being fanboys as money goes out from our own wallet. Good luck to everybody.