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Old April 15th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #121
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Craig, the C300 is the "Number One" Rented Camera! So B&H doesn't want you to purchase for your project, shoot 5-7 days of footage and then return the camera.
That's something that does happen. That doesn't mean honest customers should be punished for those who abuse the return policy. Canon should step in an handle this issue with the dealers. I believe in consumer protection especially when the consumer is spending over $5K and possibly over $26K

Although B&H and Adorama have no return, AbelCine doesn't list that on their site.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #122
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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If I could get a new Ferrari for $15k, even if the gas pedal was in the trunk, I'd have already ordered at least two. So in some ways that is a good analogy for the BMPC.
Indeed. We can't fuss too hard about form factor when the 5D II/III is still one of the most popular things to shoot on. Clearly vast swathes of people aren't too bothered if the price is right (and the picture is good).
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Old April 17th, 2013, 02:02 AM   #123
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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It is clear Dylan that you don't like the camera and that is fine. But lead folks into thinking tm camera is not functional with that analogy is just not accurate. It IS a very fine tool that records 13 stops of latitude, 12 bit raw as well as ProRes and DNx, all in an inboard recorder that uses many off the shelf SSD drives. Very revolutionary.
Actually, I love the image and what it can do. I love the price tag. No question it's the most capable camera under $15,000.

But that doesn't change the fact that the form factor is terrible for video. its a great tool, but very awkward to use. And no, you can't actually fix it with cages and add on trinkets. Maybe I am the only guy in the world who thinks its a terrible design or maybe I'm just the only guy with the balls to say it in public against the rabid fanboyism that follows a lot of these cameras.

Edit: I realized Charles Papert was the other guy in this thread who didn't like the design. So there are two of us. If you dont think my opinion is worth anything, you might want to google Charles.

I'm not steering anyone away from it... I'm just calling the facts out and people can interpret make up their own minds.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 02:20 AM   #124
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Indeed. We can't fuss too hard about form factor when the 5D II/III is still one of the most popular things to shoot on. Clearly vast swathes of people aren't too bothered if the price is right (and the picture is good).
The form factor is much worse than dslrs. Note the lack of buttons, dials, etc which allow nearly instant changes to settings on the fly? Thats just the start... Cable placement out the left side of the camera, theres another failure, right in the way of your evf or follow focus or control hand. zero inherent grip means you cant use it without a rig and then that means that none of the controls are actually under your fingertips. And so on...

I think the reason no one else is complaining is because most people dont know any better any more. Am I really the only guy here who sees these as bad/lazy design flaws that could have been done properly from day one for absolutely no extra cost? Or at least been improved on the 4k version?

Anyway, I'll leave it at that . Jim probably has the best summary of the camera on the previous page.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 02:39 AM   #125
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

I think the fact that the 4k version is so cheap is that they could just re-use the existing body, so usability was not their first priority but low price was but I do have to agree with Dylan as well about the useless formfactor in it's bare state. It seems that the low price blinds many people from the different flaws the camera's has and they only want to see the good, which is ok, because for many only the output counts and here is where this camera can deliver, at a pricepoint many can afford, but it doesn't mean it's an easy camera to work with.

I also find it worrying how defensive people can get, especially on other BMC minded fora, where if you point out that you need to spend at least double on accessories to get a production ready camera you get attacked as if you kick their child, even if they don't have one, yet :)

I"m very keen on getting the bmc pocket camera and the only thing what interests me is the image it outputs, I probably will hate the lack of real control buttons as well but I only will use it in projects where I have the time to work around those limitations and focus on image quality only and that for a ridiculous cheap price, so I can forgive bmc for not thinking like a real camera operator when they designed this camera :)
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Old April 17th, 2013, 03:03 AM   #126
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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...image quality only and that for a ridiculous cheap price
Thatís it in a nutshell, even if they put the start/stop button in the trunk.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 03:09 AM   #127
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

I still have to see one single image the pocket cam outputs so I"ll pass my final judgment when that happens, Im" not the kind of guy that pre-orders because something is cheap but when I see what it can deliver.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 12:57 PM   #128
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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The form factor is much worse than dslrs. Note the lack of buttons, dials, etc which allow nearly instant changes to settings on the fly? Thats just the start... Cable placement out the left side of the camera, theres another failure, right in the way of your evf or follow focus or control hand. zero inherent grip means you cant use it without a rig and then that means that none of the controls are actually under your fingertips. And so on...

I think the reason no one else is complaining is because most people dont know any better any more. Am I really the only guy here who sees these as bad/lazy design flaws that could have been done properly from day one for absolutely no extra cost? Or at least been improved on the 4k version?

Anyway, I'll leave it at that . Jim probably has the best summary of the camera on the previous page.
Touchscreens are not much fun (although isn't the GH2/3 mostly touchscreen driven? I haven't actually had to use it. It seems to be the way things are going). I would dispute that all these things can be fixed for nothing though. Every set of buttons, the dies to mount them on, the boards to run them would add a whole bunch of costs in design and prototyping iterations, manufacturing, you name it. It's more stuff to buy, it's more stuff to build and to get wrong. Yeah Canon and Sony can do this stuff in their sleep. They have massive design and manufacturing infrastructure with decades of experience and well run supply chains pretty much on call. They can do all this at such a scale that costs are low, or offset elsewhere. Blackmagic can't (we see the trouble they've had with their sensor manufacturer, who didn't even make sensors for vision until now). I wager just about everything awkward about it is at least partly a product of that. So no buttons. It's a pity but there it is.

You're right in a way that people don't know any better any more. There's a whole strata of filmmakers that would be lucky to even touch a cage or a follow rig, or if they get one it doesn't quite fit. Their external view finder is an old TV set or computer monitor. They spent all their money on a 5D and some dodgy op shop lenses. The Indie indies. Ex-students leeching of their school's busted old gear. This is an area where pretty much everything doesn't work to some degree and you have to make do (it's an interesting place to be since lighting, camera and art department all actually understand each other for a change. The further up the chain you go the only true hackers on set are down in Art, everyone else's gear is so nice, their jobs so regimented.).

So I think, as much as they'd like seasoned wedding shooters and so forth to buy them as well, they were thinking a bit more grass roots with this one. Both in terms of costs and design.
(I was thinking though that with 4k coming along Kine-finity needs to really get a move on. They look more like video cameras so people should be happier there)
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Old April 17th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #129
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Edit: I realized Charles Papert was the other guy in this thread who didn't like the design. So there are two of us. If you dont think my opinion is worth anything, you might want to google Charles
Can I chime in as well?

My thoughts?

BMD is doing VERY well right now by creating fanboys - their gear is offered at a ridiculously low price but never seems to make it out of beta. Check the BMD Forum available at their website to see JUST HOW MANY issues real world users are having with BMD products across the line. They do a handful of things well and mess up just as many. In fact, every firmware update across the lines breaks as much as it fixes.

I have more invested in BMD products than most independent producers so I feel qualified.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 02:04 PM   #130
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Murray Christian View Post
Every set of buttons, the dies to mount them on, the boards to run them would add a whole bunch of costs in design and prototyping iterations, manufacturing, you name it. It's more stuff to buy, it's more stuff to build and to get wrong. Yeah Canon and Sony can do this stuff in their sleep. They have massive design and manufacturing infrastructure with decades of experience and well run supply chains pretty much on call. They can do all this at such a scale that costs are low, or offset elsewhere. Blackmagic can't (we see the trouble they've had with their sensor manufacturer, who didn't even make sensors for vision until now). I wager just about everything awkward about it is at least partly a product of that. So no buttons. It's a pity but there it is.
Valid point on their problems and the additional cost. Stuff like the cable directions, etc, could be fixed free, but a proper control set would have added a few hundred to the cost. IMHO, it would have been worth it.

You know... it's too bad they couldn't just have added a mount for the Red Epic control handle. :)
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Old April 17th, 2013, 03:22 PM   #131
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

The form factor is much worse than dslrs. Note the lack of buttons, dials, etc which allow nearly instant changes to settings on the fly?[/QUOTE]

Actually, given the fact that there are so few changes you can make in camera, changing on the fly is not really something one does with this camera. I can understand you may wanti to change ISO on the fly, as an issue, but changing the iris is done with out going into the menu. Shutter speed is usually chosen and forgotten in my work flow, and given that latitude is so wide on the camera, you can pan the camera from bright sunlight into shadow, and not lose detail.

After all that, if you have a separate monitor, you can leave the menu screen up and change settings on the fly, while still framing shoot from the montior screen. See photo attached.

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Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
Thats just the start... Cable placement out the left side of the camera, theres another failure, right in the way of your evf or follow focus or control hand. zero inherent grip means you cant use it without a rig and then that means that none of the controls are actually under your fingertips. And so on...
I have yet to run into this as being a problem. Admittedly, I am only three weeks into using the camera, but this left side cable placement is no different that with the Canon 5D Mark II, and there were no issues for me there either.

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Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
I think the reason no one else is complaining is because most people dont know any better any more. Am I really the only guy here who sees these as bad/lazy design flaws that could have been done properly from day one for absolutely no extra cost? Or at least been improved on the 4k version?
One of the reasons for keeping the form factor the same is to allow the secondary manufacturers to develop their products to fit across the entire line interchangeably. A solution to 5D issues was provided in time., and one for the shortcomings of this camera be provided too. As a DYI rigger, I am actually quite thankful for the simplicity of this camera, and the four mounting points provided. With simple aluminum stock and bushings, and simple tools in my gargage, I have been able to fashion and mount dual hand grips, a shoulder rig, and loupe set up. See this Youtube video as example.

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New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera-dsc00343.jpg  
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Old April 17th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #132
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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After all that, if you have a separate monitor, you can leave the menu screen up and change settings on the fly, while still framing shoot from the montior screen. See photo attached.
I bet that shot of the fan has some fantastic DR. I don't find the form factor an issue either, every camera has its issues. Seriously, DSLR's shortcomings don't bother me, the BMCC will not either.

Cables can be situated easier than a DSLR IMHO with something like this:

Laird Digital Cinema 2-Channel Stereo Balanced Right Angle 1/4-Inch to XLR Blackmagic 2.5K Cinema Camera Audio Adapter Cable - 3-Foot 1/4in Phone to XLR Cables at Markertek.com

Right angle 1/4" connectors keep the profile low and you can zip tie excess cable to a top handle. Now just get more of them out so the used market will be flooded with them once the 4k cam hits the street so I can score a deal on one. Till then its the pocket cam for me...
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Old April 17th, 2013, 07:28 PM   #133
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
One of the reasons for keeping the form factor the same is to allow the secondary manufacturers to develop their products to fit across the entire line interchangeably. A solution to 5D issues was provided in time., and one for the shortcomings of this camera be provided too.
But why design a camera that perpetuates the need for a secondary market that only exists because of the fluke of people needing to shoot video on DSLRs in the first place?

Anyway, this has been beaten to death. It is what it is and none of this will matter when GoPro launches their 8k for $800 camera next year.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 01:54 AM   #134
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

at this point, i am sure that the many DSLR users that would step up to this camera already have the rigs and solutions to the form factor, audio, cable etc. and rigs can be had for so much cheaper! i laugh at the big name rigs that are just bits of aluminum selling for thousands of dollars. i understand that 'you get what you pay for' to some extent, but give me a break! i just bought a camera cage and rails for 150 bucks, and turned it in to two solid camera supports. yes, there are design problems, but they are by far outweighed by the benefits, and are expected in a product that is pushing technological and pricing boundaries. i wish BMD nothing but success as innovators should be rewarded, not derided!
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Old April 18th, 2013, 09:42 AM   #135
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

Innovators? This is a major for profit corporation.... not Kickstarter kids in their basement.
They have not really innovated anything, they have just copied what is out there smaller and cheaper.
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