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Old December 15th, 2013, 03:31 PM   #286
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

No. Scaled to 1080 it looks really nice, and very sharp, but at 4K it bothers me too.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 03:52 PM   #287
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
The good news for me as Vegas Pro user is that those mxf play well enough on my PC to be edited! I tried the same with the AX1 sample (the goose), and it wasn't possible (that could only be played back using the Mercury engine in PP CS, which I'm only trying out now).
Why Is the GPU acceleration implementation so poor in VP12?!!

While the I-frame is playable (and just barely editable) in Vegas, the Long GOP version is crawling at 1-5 fps with GPU load at 19% max. The same clip plays full speed in PP CC, with the same Quadro 4000M loaded at up to 100% most of the time!

Is the PP's Mercury engine patented, or what?!!

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Old December 15th, 2013, 03:55 PM   #288
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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No. Scaled to 1080 it looks really nice, and very sharp, but at 4K it bothers me too.
This is a disaster for both the Z100 and AX1, because to see all the details in 4k one must watch from a very short distance - and this is when the noise roars its ugly head...

That said, it's not as bad as in the EX1 at HD....
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Old December 15th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #289
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
This is a disaster for both the Z100 and AX1, because to see all the details in 4k one must watch from a very short distance - and this is when the noise roars its ugly head...

That said, it's not as bad as in the EX1 at HD....
I always thought the EX1's noise was at least acceptable, and if you really didn't like it, shoot -3dB in bright conditions. I will admit though that the footage scaled down from these cameras actually does look perceptually cleaner than the EX1 at 0db.

However, using a consumer sensor that is basically a cell phone sensor (The Xperia Z1 is the exact same sensor) will have major drawbacks such as this. What we need next are native raster sensors (4096x2160 preferably, and not limited to 16x9) and super high resolution prisms. IMHO, bayer and supersampling only works on S35 and above.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #290
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I think the sensor in my AX1 is the same as the one in my HX30V. Characteristics are similar for low light. I just did a shoot with my NX5U, the AX1 , CX700 and my wife used the NX30U. It was a school dance show so the lights were flashing all the time, dark, red etc etc a real challenge and I usually leave even my NX5U in auto exposure with spotlight setting. The CX700 was set AE shift -1.0ev as was the NX30U and also the AX1. There were no max gain settings for the CX700 or NX30 but I set the AX1 to max 21db which it stayed at more most of the show !!!! To my surprise looking at the data code for the NX30 and CX700 afterwards they too were at 21db most of the time with occasional 24db !! Scaled to 1920x1080 the AX1 had a better image than the CX700 with no more noise that I could see but the interesting effect of the increased resolution was the faces were never blown out by the lights. None of my other shows will be this dark so I am happy !! Not sure if it will be as good as I want for cropping as this brings out the grain too much at these levels. In good light it works fine.

As to my shots of the Canada geese I can get it to play close to real time in Edius Pro 7 and will play in Vegas Pro 12 if preview is set to draft good. Good enough to cut by I think. My PC is an i7 3770 running WIN 7, 64bit with 16G RAM, lots of hard drives.

The AX1 is not a replacement for my NX5U.

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Old December 16th, 2013, 04:16 AM   #291
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I think your viewing methods are suspect to say the least. Of course the noise will be more noticeable when scaled 100%. Just remember when making a comparison to an HD camera that assuming you have an HD monitor when you scale the 4K to 100% you are looking at an image 4x larger than the equivalent HD, so I would expect to see noise similar to the equivalent HD camera.

When viewed on a large 4K TV, the footage looks very good and noise levels are perfectly acceptable at 0db and +6db. As well as Austin, we had one in Toronto for the Vistex 4K event. This was feeding a 65" 4K Bravia and looked very nice, even close up and most people felt the images looked very clean. It's only when you go above +6db that it really starts to suffer as the noise reduction introduces a lot of extra smear and smoothing that tends to soften and blur the image.

Ron: Resolution won't make the difference between faces blowing out or not. That's dynamic range.

Zack: Who says this is the same sensor as the Experia Z1? I doubt that very much, if you've seen the pictures from the Z1 you'll know the Z100 images are far superior, much better dynamic range. 4096x2160 is not 16:9 it's 17:9. But of course any sensor with a similar pixel size will have largely similar performance, that's the laws of optics and physics at work. I wouldn't expect miracles from a micro sized prism at 4K, the added diffraction and dispersion effects will restrict the useable aperture range and negate any benefits over a bayer sensor. In addition we are already pushing the limits of current lens technology with these high resolution small sensors. Larger sensors and bigger pixels are still the way to go.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #292
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
...we are already pushing the limits of current lens technology with these high resolution small sensors. Larger sensors and bigger pixels are still the way to go.
Which is why I think a 4K EA50 or FS700R replacement is coming down the line. APS-C may be a good compromise for people unable to access Super35.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 07:53 AM   #293
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

[QUOTE=Alister Chapman;1824559
Ron: Resolution won't make the difference between faces blowing out or not. That's dynamic range.

[/QUOTE]

What ever the reason it works for me as an unattended camera running in semi auto even at high gain settings.

I also agree with Jack that there will be a larger sensor camcorder some time next year. Maybe using the RX10 sensor which would be great and maybe then a replacement for my NX5U. The NX3 is nice but not a big enough difference for me to change my NX5U. I want the longer zoom with good low light so an APC sensor may then require a very large lens with too shallow depth of field for my uses.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #294
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Could someone help me with what is the right way for editing the XAVC clips in PP CC? As per the screen grab below (coming from one of the on-line tutorials), it should be there to chose but - unlike the other listed - I cannot find it anywhere. So I'm using the RED 4k format for my sequences instead, but is there a better way?

Disclaimer: I am a complete newbie to PP; always used Vegas Pro :)

PS. Perhaps the 30-day CC trial has some limitations?
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Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; December 16th, 2013 at 12:14 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 12:21 PM   #295
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
I think your viewing methods are suspect to say the least. Of course the noise will be more noticeable when scaled 100%. Just remember when making a comparison to an HD camera that assuming you have an HD monitor when you scale the 4K to 100% you are looking at an image 4x larger than the equivalent HD, so I would expect to see noise similar to the equivalent HD camera.
Alister,

If you are talking to me, please let me explain: using Vegas with those mxf XAVC clips, I can use the option "Scale output to fit the monitor" and - on my 50" plasma hanging some 1m in front and above me - I'm then watching gorgeous HD material. When I uncheck this option, the plasma shows an almost pixel-to-pixel image and there is a lot of black splotches in the picture, which I call noise.

Similarly, using Premiere Pro CC, if I set the scale of Export format to 100 (with Export Preview set to HD, as I can't set it to anything higher), I'm getting quite nice HD. Blowing it up 4x (400%) I can see the same noise as in VP, and this is the real clip resolution!

What am I missing?
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Old December 16th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #296
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

There's no preset for XAVC, but drop an XAVC clip into an empty timeline and it will adjust the parameters to match.

If your using a 50" monitor and you scale 1 to 1 pixels then you are viewing the equivalent of a quarter of the equivalent to a 100" monitor which really is a very big screen. You wouldn't normally watch a 100" screen from just 1m away. It's like watching your 50" screen from just 25cm and I'm quite sure that that close you will clearly see any grain or other artefacts. It also assumes that your software/computer can playback full frame 4K and take a crop and process this in to an HD stream in real time without compromising the image quality.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #297
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

You're spot on, Alister - I tried to imagine 4x the area of my 50" plasma and came to the same conclusion; were it 100" and UHD, I would back away by another meter or two, which I did. Unfortunately, the black noise was still visible (in both PP and VP)...

Oh, I forgot about the XAVC preset: you're right the PP sequence will adapt, but somehow I cannot find a way to export 4k from PP (neither to a preview monitor, nor to rendered-out media... Please give me a hint as PP newbie :)
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Old December 16th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #298
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
There's no preset for XAVC, but drop an XAVC clip into an empty timeline and it will adjust the parameters to match.
Yeah, that's what I did in PPCC and it worked fine.

Alister, excited for your review of this camera. I have to ask, working with Sony, did you know the NX3 was coming out long before it arrived? If so, do you have any word on any other sony large(r) sensor cameras (eg. 1 inch or above) under $10k coming in early-mid 2014? Perhaps you are not allowed to say but I had to ask.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 01:31 PM   #299
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

No, I did not know about the NX3, but NXCAM is not a line I tend to be all that involved in. I have not heard any rumours of any more large sensor cameras, but that does not mean anything other than I don't know and if I did know I wouldn't be allowed to say.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 02:08 PM   #300
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Thanks for your response Alister. Are you saying that when I scale a 4K clip to 100% on my HD monitor that it's equivalent to scaling an HD clip to 400%? Trying to get clear on this… Remember that 4K is brand new territory for a lot of us.
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