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Old January 3rd, 2014, 02:41 PM   #346
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I too hope 50p and 60p come, and I bet when proper HDMI 2.0 comes that it will be possible, just not at 4:4:4.
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 02:57 PM   #347
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

For broadcast, I don't think you are going to see 4:2:2 4k right out of the gate either... any bits they can throw away without the end user complaining will be discarded... 4:2:0 at 24/25/30 is my early prediction with 60 as a possibility...
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 03:00 PM   #348
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I understand Ron's want for 60 frames as an option for motion smoothness but I think we have seen the last of interlacing... interlacing was designed for the hardware of the time. Current panels are exclusively progressive scan.

Yes... I PERSONALLY want UHD at 60 fps at 4:2:2 but if that is IP delivery and clogs the entire internet... well...

I'm quite prepared to be realistic and pragmatic... roll out what you can as you can and build infrastructure for scalable roll-out as technology and infrastructure allows.

Heck, even downsampled 4k/6k to 2k/HD looks better than most HD sourced material...
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 03:09 PM   #349
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

My hopes for 4:4:4 4K 60p are more for computer monitors than broadcast, but for sure we are using 4:2:0 for any type of delivery in the near future.

However, the expectations of Rec. 2020 and Deep Color can't be met with 8bit 4:2:0. Closest thing is the F55 or F65 to capture color close to the Rec. 2020 space.
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 03:18 PM   #350
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

People are increasingly watching content on mobile... the set-top box in the living room is on life support.

The iPod generation wants to CARRY their content, not watch it in stunning quality.

DVD Audio never caught on because MP3s meant you could carry your entire catalog of music on something SMALLER than a deck of playing cards...

Video streaming is the next logical step.

Not saying I LIKE that... just saying it is a reality that is working AGAINST us ever seeing 8kp240 4:4:4 at 12 bits on-demand in stunning quality...
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 04:18 PM   #351
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

To those thinking 30p can't handle motion, try using 1/40th shutter. It's fluid, natural without the soap opera effect.
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 04:34 PM   #352
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
People are increasingly watching content on mobile... the set-top box in the living room is on life support.

The iPod generation wants to CARRY their content, not watch it in stunning quality.

DVD Audio never caught on because MP3s meant you could carry your entire catalog of music on something SMALLER than a deck of playing cards...

Video streaming is the next logical step.

Not saying I LIKE that... just saying it is a reality that is working AGAINST us ever seeing 8kp240 4:4:4 at 12 bits on-demand in stunning quality...
Mobile streaming is currently near-impossible in HD due to ridiculously low bandwidth caps. (at least in Canada)

This is the same argument with Rolling Shutters moving from CCDs to CMOS.
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 05:01 PM   #353
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
To those thinking 30p can't handle motion, try using 1/40th shutter. It's fluid, natural without the soap opera effect.
What ever the shutter speed the slow frame rates all have the same problems with panning the camera. Judder in the backgrounds or in the subject if moving fast and zoomed in too close. Only higher frame rates can resolve these issues. If the camera is stationary then they capture motion acceptably.

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Old January 3rd, 2014, 05:53 PM   #354
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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The math would be in the neighbourhood of 8x the potential bandwidth (before considering increased efficiencies due to duplicate pixels or suppressible detail and whatever is gained by h.265) in a jump from a maximum of 1080P30 to UHD/4kP60...
That is only at all true at the acquisition stage, even then it's far from all the story. (Even in an I-frame only system you can apply higher compression ratios to higher resolution frames.)

Move to long-GOP (which transmission etc will almost certainly be) and it's nowhere near the case for framerates. Comparing (say) 30p to 60p, the idea is to keep the same time interval between I-frames (say, every 1/2 second) and just double the number of difference frames. Since the bulk of the datarate is in the I-frames, and there's less difference between frames 1/60sec apart than 1/30, then 60p transmission needn't involve a much higher datarate than 30p. Similar story for 120p - for transmission.

It would be pointless to formulate a 4K transmission standard that is limited to 30p - the standard should allow for up to 120p. (But at least 60p.)

And just because that's what the standard says, doesn't mean that is what everything has to be. As example, if you have a 720p/50 standard, it doesn't preclude 25p transmissions of cinema films etc. A 4K120p standard would still allow for lower framerate transmissions - 30, 60p or whatever.
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 06:00 PM   #355
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
People are increasingly watching content on mobile... the set-top box in the living room is on life support.

The iPod generation wants to CARRY their content, not watch it in stunning quality.
They want to carry their content AND watch it in stunning quality haha

Codecs will shape everything. RED is using their codec to stream 4k @ under 2.5MB/s to their REDRAY but obviously they won't be the ones to change that on the broadcast end. The other concern is how hardcore of a compression are they using for H265. It will require a lot of power to just unpack and that could make streaming to some modern devices in 4k very difficult or ridiculously resource consuming.

But again, not like any tech company is complaining, another thing to market, and we will be the ones feeding the frenzy.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:02 AM   #356
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
To those thinking 30p can't handle motion, try using 1/40th shutter. It's fluid, natural without the soap opera effect.
Tom, what is the magic formula behind it? I'm asking out of curiosity, but also because I'd like to try adapt it to my 25p video...

Cheers

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Old January 5th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #357
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Hi Piotr,
The idea is to strike the right balance between staccato like motion and smearing. That balance should attempt to smooth stuttery, strobing frames and replace them with natural motion that doesn't go too far toward smearing or ghost trails. It's just an artistic preference, try it! As you know, faster shutter sharpens frames, but a certain amount of blur during motion or panning looks natural, cinematic. Too slow with the shutter speed blurs too much, causing ghosting trails or smear. 1/40th is just right, works for handheld as well as tripod.
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Old January 6th, 2014, 01:29 AM   #358
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Fair enough; so it's a matter of experimentation rather than a strict formula to derive the best shutter speed for smear-strobe balance.

Considering there is a limited set of shutter speeds, I guess one should look for similar results with 25p at 1/60th, right? Of course not in 60 Hz countries...
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Old January 6th, 2014, 02:18 PM   #359
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Not speaking for all cameras but Sony has ECS mode (extended clear scan) on the EX1, PMW350 and others, that allows you to set a shutter frequency inbetween the normal choices of 1/24, 1/30, 1/60th etc.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:30 PM   #360
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Took delivery on Friday…shot full-tilt 4k 60p in my sunny back yard and was a little underwhelmed. Not sure why but even at 0 gain, the image was rather noisy. Did a lecture video (1080 30p) indoors with the usual terrible light and needed +18 gain. Shot some interviews at 1080 30p with lighting and 0 gain and then tested my green screen studio which I could achieve proper levels with 0 gain and 180 deg shutter.
None of these were critical projects and I shot b-cam with my 1Dx which rules in low light so it was my unofficial "real world" test of the camera. Having done similar shoots the week before with my XF300 I must say I'm not impressed. I was expecting a significant improvement in IQ with good lighting but knew the low light would be the weak point. Not sure at this point…

Anyhow, other things I miss from the Canon…WFM, face-detect AF, and an LCD that can flip to right or left side, ability to choose Kelvin numbers for WB.

Some things I really like about the Z100, zoom controls are super smooth and variable top rocker is nice. On-off switch (compared to the Canon slider), Lens variable aperture with zoom not as extreme as Canon, no lens cap to lose, 3 lens rings, much better color rendering than the XF.

With the beast of a codec and the 4K sensor it sure seemed like a good idea on paper…gonna give it a little more time. I'm hoping I am screwing something up somewhere! And just to clarify my reason for wanting 4K…I am generally a 1-man-band. Shooting at 4K then "pan and scan" in post would be very useful for the type of work I do. I also do a ton of green screen work and the added resolution should result in cleaner keys…the XF was quite amazing…just looking for the next level. We'll see!
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