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Old September 4th, 2013, 08:47 PM   #31
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

If it happens I'd imagine later this month when Sony announces other dslrs and probably the minor updated fs700 and kit. Vg series is updated yearly.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #32
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I have not played with this one yet. Matt is your man!

I'll get my hands on one a couple of days before IBC (next week) and I'll report back, but if your not heavily into 4K I would not be rushing out to by a 4K camera with a small sensor and tiny pixels until seeing the footage, noise levels, sensitivity and dynamic range. Don't forget diffraction too.

Think back to the PD150/PD170 and the first SonyHD handy cam the Z1/FX1. I think you'll see similar differences.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 03:35 AM   #33
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Agree with you Alister, I'm waiting for the 1080 3-chip XAVC replacement for the PMW-200 before I let my EX1R go.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 06:36 AM   #34
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Jack Zhang View Post
Agree with you Alister, I'm waiting for the 1080 3-chip XAVC replacement for the PMW-200 before I let my EX1R go.
You won't have long to wait. The PMW-300 will have XAVC (after a firmware upgrade) and will be available in October. It's listed at $7,999 right now.
Not a bad price for what you're getting.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 07:19 AM   #35
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

It says that this camera can record 4K 60 fps 10bit 4:2:2 at 600Mbits/s, on XQD memory cards. A 32 GB Sony XQD memory card is 98$ @ B&H now:
Sony 32GB XQD Memory Card QDH32/T B&H Photo Video

My Sony EX1R records 1080p 30 fps 8 bit 4:2:0 at 35mbits/s and it's suggested to use SxS media on the camera. A 32 GB SxS-1 memory card is 338$ on B&H now:
Sony 32GB SxS-1 Memory Card SBS-32G1A B&H Photo Video
(and that's a SxS-1, not SxS pro)

Now i remember those people praising SxS cards on Ex cameras over SDHC media all over the internet and would like to hear their opinion on this matter.

I don't think this is innovation. I find Sony's approach VERY unethical before everything else.

Too bad we don't have a non japanese company that will do what Apple did in 2007 and teach these people their true lessons...
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Old September 5th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #36
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Ozgur Iskin View Post
Now i remember those people praising SxS cards on Ex cameras over SDHC media all over the internet and would like to hear their opinion on this matter.

I don't think this is innovation. I find Sony's approach VERY unethical before everything else.
I remember one of the discussions you refer to, and took part in it. But how does that equate with "Sonys position" being "unethical"? The discussions were about Sony by forum members, not by Sony themselves!?

And I was (still am) am the side that says that SDHC card usage in an EX is a very valuable tool. Not really as a money saving tool, but more for enabling more versatile workflows where the shooting medium can be it's own backup. I use SDHC in a PMW320 a lot with few problems.

BUT, with that said, I can't pretend there aren't advantages to SxS cards. Faster download, greater robustness, just a more "pro" everything. As example, I know that when using SDHC the last thing you want to do is try to rush hitting the on-off button in quick succession, or switch the camera off too quickly after recording. But I'm aware of it, and with that in mind the advantages to SDHC outweigh the cons most of the time.

The other point is that there are no guarantees with SDHC. It's rare but you may get a dud out of the packet - SxS cards are individually tested and guaranteed - with SDHC they just test samples of a batch. Again, I test new cards before serious use myself .

You get what you pay for. I can well see that Sony have to market a system that is as near bulletproof as possible, at least for the pro world. If any user wants to take a risk with a cheaper solution (at their own risk) that's a different matter. I think most people are just glad that Sony left the door to that open - there were fears they would block SDHC usage altogether at one point.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 08:49 AM   #37
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Let's compare fruit, rather than apples and chocolate bars, here.

XQD is a card format that's really looking to take over from Compact Flash cards, rather than stomp all over the SDHC market.

SxS and its variants had to have a very long life with every-day usage plus an absolute fail-safe if the operator did unexpected things like popping a card or pulling off a battery whilst shooting. I guess a few accountants got together and worked out what the cost-benefit was of having these safety switches in place for pro cards, versus the 'oops, you screwed up' version for SDHC. If you were a big company spending millions on an upgrade, SxS was a sensible solution and not really part of the general factor of 'shall I buy into this because of SxS?'.

But we videographers had different business plans, and we voted for SDHC in USB-enabled SxS adaptors.

Now, fast forward a bit: recording 4K at 60p is a non-trivial exercise. Black Magic are trying all sorts of tricks to do it on SDHC, but Sony are trying a different tack: they need 4K at 60p, they need XDCAM, they need all sorts of codecs, and some wriggle room for safety plus some room to grow. XQD is better than SDHC, has more life than CF and will go faster for longer.

Would we rather Sony says 'okay, you have to use SxS in this camera' or 'from now on, we're devaluing SDHC and putting our effort in XQD, even if it's not quite the same sales pitch we have for SxS.'

Note well the funny little SDHC card slot next to the XQD slots - this is fully intended to support AVCHD, and there's nowt wrong in that. Note also the other (yes a second) SDHC slot that will hold up to 64 camera setups - yes, rather than put them on the same card as your footage, the setups & picture profiles sit on a separate card - an inexpensive card format well suited to data-only applications. Sort of 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's' if you'll excuse the wobbly metaphor.

It was easy for me to buy an XQD reader from Amazon for not much (a lot less than an SxS reader!), and extra cards can be had from other sources than Sony (which didn't really happen with SxS). SDHC is getting to the end of its bandwidth roadmap, XQD is just starting.

Yes, to some extent, I am sipping the KoolAid here, but sometimes you need to move on. SxS, SDHC, CF, all had their time. XQD is designed to supercede CF and its markets, and a camera like this will encourage others to adopt this format. 165 Mbits per second! Costs less than CF! It isn't SxS! Yay! LOL
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Old September 5th, 2013, 08:55 AM   #38
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Innovation to me means progress to give more for less, faster. In PC and camera world that means more performance in smaller packages for less money. The rate of change is also improved so that new things come out faster. That is a fact of life now. If you don't need something today wait until next week there will likely be a better product that costs less !!! Of interest is that I have bought Sony prosumer stuff since the VX3 Hi8 camera, just missing out the VX1000. They all have cost roughly $5000 replaced every 3 or 4 years initially bought when they came out for the FX1 and NX5U that I now have. In all cases the improvement was significant and well worth the upgrade even as a somewhat serious amateur. In all cases the year after I bought the prosumer version the handycam version had just as good a performance !!! The change to AVCHD camparison with the XR500 got me to change my FX1 for the NX5U. The NX5U now is marginal in comparison to the CX700 and NX30U I have ( which use single sensors about the same size as the 4K models ) There are differences of course the adjustments are not there on the smaller cameras. I sometimes shoot with a friend who uses an EX3 for the closeup shots. It is clearly superior to the small Sony's but with more noise !!! Comparison to the NX5U is close with the edge to the EX3 of course both with more noise than either the CX700 or the NX30U.

Changes in the PC world are even more dramatic. I build my own PC's so the price changes are purely cost of components. The first PC I made cost $3500 and by todays standard was just a little less powerful than my watch !!! Present editing PC an i7 2600K with 16G RAM and 5T hard drive storage cost less than half that original PC !!

Sony work in this changing world and to be competitive have to produce new products all the time. Moral is if you don't need it or want it today don't buy it.

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Old September 5th, 2013, 09:36 AM   #39
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

When you buy a GFX card today for let's say 500$ and something better comes out 2 months later with more power; they don't sell that new card for 300$, do they?. Also if the card you have is not discontinued, it becomes cheaper in stores as well.

I thought my previous post was clear enough. If they had dropped SxS card prices by %80, i wouldn't have made this post. "4k 60fps camera needs something better than SxS so they made XQD cards.. better performance, smaller, lighter, cheaper.. and look, they are lowering the prices of their 'old' media too!"... You know, i could buy that.

But not this. Sony (and their prayers) kept telling people SxS was superior to everything else and they were talking about a 35mbit/s camera back then. Now if Sony does not choose their own 'more robust, best of the best' platform for something clearly much better (600mbits 4k 60fps vs 35mbits 1080p 30fps, anyone?), i question that.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 10:02 AM   #40
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Cards are just memory storage technology of the time. Look at the prices for new DDR3 memory and then try and find the price for DDR2 memory usually twice the price or more. You will find that the old lower performance memory is a lot more expensive even thought its out of date by todays standards. Products that need that memory will have to pay just like SxS cards. To use the new lower cost, higher performance and larger memory needs a complete new PC system. Same with cameras.

Video tape prices are still about the same as they were and the tape based cameras that are still available are also much the same price new if anyone wants them.

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Old September 5th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #41
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Uh - no mention of lower frame rates; 23.98fps, 25fps - isn't anyone annoyed by this? If it's only a 60P/50P format - what's so special about this camera other than the ability to shoot off-speed slo-mo? 60P slowed down to 23.98 or 25fps always looks pretty funky to me - way too sharp.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 10:46 AM   #42
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Now if Sony does not choose their own 'more robust, best of the best' platform for something clearly much better (600mbits 4k 60fps vs 35mbits 1080p 30fps, anyone?), i question that.
But as Matt very well put it, speed, datarate etc isn't everything - there's absolute reliability and a lot of other things to consider.

And he's spot on with the analysis that reliability costs money - a lot of it. And lines get drawn at different places for different types of users. But reliability etc is much more difficult to quantify and cost than simple recorded datarate though, and there's much of the problem.

And in that respect, don't let it be forgotten that the Z100 is a prosumer camera, even if a 4k one. So although XQD may be fast by standards of a few years ago, it's considered a con/prosumer grade memory with all that entails. Note Sony still use SxS or AXSM memory cards on their pro gear like the F55.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #43
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Bruce Schultz View Post
Uh - no mention of lower frame rates; 23.98fps, 25fps - isn't anyone annoyed by this? If it's only a 60P/50P format - what's so special about this camera other than the ability to shoot off-speed slo-mo? 60P slowed down to 23.98 or 25fps always looks pretty funky to me - way too sharp.
For the AX1 on the Sony site with data rates. Video Resolution : HD: 19201080 60P (50), 19201080 30P (50), 19201080 24P (50), 19201080 50P (50), 19201080 25P (50);4K: 38402160 60P (150), 38402160 30P (100), 38402160 30P (60), 38402160 24P (100), 38402160 24P (60), 38402160 50P (150), 38402160 25P (100), 38402160 25P (60)

Personally I do not like slow frame rates so 60P would be fine for me and that is what I will use all the time.

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Old September 5th, 2013, 03:52 PM   #44
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Remember that those are the bitrates for XAVC-S, not XAVC intra. The intra bitrates are way higher than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
You won't have long to wait. The PMW-300 will have XAVC (after a firmware upgrade) and will be available in October. It's listed at $7,999 right now.
Not a bad price for what you're getting.
I mean a fixed lens replacement for the 200 with XAVC. Interchangeable is too pricy for me at the moment. (and here's hoping it has the DC IN outside the battery socket)
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Old September 5th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #45
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

If anybody has the AX1 or the Z100 demo,..could you PLEASE (pretty please?) upload to Vimeo a 1080 crop from the center of your 4k test shots?

Although I cant watch in 4k yet, a good clean 1080 center crop video would give us all a good reference point of the image quality (or just resolution) in 4k.

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