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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:12 AM   #106
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I think the future may look like AVCHD for the consumer models, XAVCS and AVCHD for the prosumer/consumer crossover models, XAVC/XAVCS/AVCHD for the low end pro models and XAVC for the high end. For small and larger sensors. Essentially the same codec in slightly different forms for the whole lineup from Cybershots to the high end !! Will be interesting to see if the PXW-Z100 SDI can feed an Odyssey7Q . Would be a nice package with large SSD rather than XQD cards. Jack may be correct in thinking there will be a family replacing the EX1/3 but I think they may be single chip versions to go with the trend , with much the same recording spec as the PXW-Z100 which would be nice too. Life of the PMW100, PMW160 and PMW200 would be even shorter than the NX5U !!

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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:30 AM   #107
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
I finally got to see a 4K monitor in Best Buy (video shot on an F65, I think). I was floored! I'll take 4K resolution, even if dynamic range and sensitivity is lost on a 1/2.3" chip. For $6,500, you can't have it all.
Glen, what are going to deliver on! :) When I watched some 4k at Fry's the other day I was not floored. It looked very nice and you could walk up close to the TV and it did not pixelate. But at normal viewing distances it did not look that much better than my television at home. Certainly not so much to be an early adopter.

Give me dynamic range and light sensitivity. Resolution is a gimmic that you the viewer adapts to and focuses back on content after the glow fades away. I do not want cameras that are a bit crippled just to give more pixels. It is just too early for me. Heck, I can not find a good preview monitor larger than 5-7" that is even 720p! what are folks going to do with 4k??

As far as HD going away!!!? Seriously, this is just the type of conversation Sony wants flying around internet forums. HD is not going away. All television is 720p or 1080i and that will not change for a long time. People still want DVDs of what I shoot. Where does 4k fit into this universe? I agree with Gabe.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:41 AM   #108
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Just as a 'By The Way'...

4K is not just about resolution. Thankfully.

Rec709 - the HD standard - is 20 years old, when CRTs were the norm. 4K's standards - the BT2020 and the rest - take a long look forward. That specifically means contrast (beyond 5 stops), and colour range (Digital Cinema Initiatives's P3 colour space and beyond).

There's talk from the 4K world that HD filmed at 4:2:2 and 10 bit looks far FAR better than 4:2:0 or even 4:2:2 8 bit.

And don't get me started on Aspect Ratios... LOL

So, 4K is not just about resolution - there's that but it's not exclusive. It's also about colour range (P3), colour resolution (4:2:2 and beyond) and bit depth (10 bits per channel, no less). YOu have to factor that in to your choices about filming now in HD.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:43 AM   #109
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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As far as HD going away!!!? Seriously, this is just the type of conversation Sony wants flying around internet forums. HD is not going away. All television is 720p or 1080i and that will not change for a long time. People still want DVDs of what I shoot. Where does 4k fit into this universe? I agree with Gabe.
+1 on that, Tim - of all my classical music recordings, we're only printing/selling DVDs with the HD version just burned to a few BDs, for personal use...

While this would not be an interesting offer for professional videographers, a "serious hobbyist" like me would love to be offered a complete system to assess whether I can afford entering the 4K world. The camera is just a beginning; add the media, all new computer with a QHD monitor for efficient editing, and at least a 65" UHD TV - I don't think many of prosumers would even think of beginning the early adopters at the moment...
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Old September 8th, 2013, 09:04 AM   #110
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

My interest in 4K is to crop a HD image. Just like I did with HDV when it came out and cropped to SD. Did that for over two years with my FX1 before the other cameras I got were AVCHD small Handycams. Then went all 16x9 and eventually Bluray for my archive only. I don`t see creating a 4K finished project for many years but am really interested in using for cropping as when I did this with the FX1 it was great. So. No need for 4K monitor or any other 4K stuff as the output will go straight to a HD project as an oversized file, will get archived for the future. Until I can get a 4K handycam and repeat what I did with the FX1 all projects will be just HD. The FDR-AX1 is a nice replacement for my NX5U and since it is almost the same I will be able to use all the batteries, controllers etc I now have for the NX5U. Just wished it had AVCHD record from day one. Looks like that may have to wait until 2014 firmware update then it will completely replace the NX5U !!!

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Old September 8th, 2013, 09:32 AM   #111
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Ron, I wouldn't spend $6,000 on a 4K camera (full of compromises as the Z100 is) only to crop the picture for HD. The only reward for all those compromises - WOW factor - is gone with such limited application...
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Old September 8th, 2013, 09:48 AM   #112
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I am not looking at the PXW-Z100 but the FDR-AX1. $4500 or less. About the same as I paid for my NX5U a few years ago. Data rate is too high on the PXW-Z100 to be of use to me until it has LongGOP next year then that would make it just like the FDR-AX1 is now !!! HD with XAVCS is higher quality than AVCHD so is a reasonable replacement.

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Old September 8th, 2013, 09:49 AM   #113
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Another interesting thought about the Z100 and XAVC,....

The bitrates, bit depth and 4:2:2 sampling are very aggressive in 4k. And, in looking at the HD XAVC specs? They are also very, VERY strong as well. (even the consumer Handycam version does 50Mbp/s, 8bit 4:2:0?)

If I were Atomos, Convergent Design or AJA, I'd be very concerned about the future need or market for outboard recorders. In-camera XAVC might literally be the only thing you would want for 4:2:2 10 bit.

XAVC and whatever CODEC Panasonic creates to compete could break these little companies. (Or force them into making completely different products)

The next 2-3 years is going be HUGE!

Between Sony, Panny and Cannon, I would expect at least 2-4 brand new 4K camera models by next summer. (Not counting any CES consumer 4K cameras next January)

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Old September 8th, 2013, 10:05 AM   #114
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

I don`t think they should worry too much. Even with 2 64G XQD cards the PXW-Z100 will only record for a about 25mins at 4k 60P and at a cost of maybe close to $800 for the fast cards. A Odyssey and 2x 256G SSD will record for a much longer time and give you a nice monitor as well. Until there are low cost 128G XQD cards I think the outboard stuff will win easily. Will the SDI from the PXW-Z100 feed the Odyssey

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Old September 8th, 2013, 10:30 AM   #115
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
Another promo video for the PXW-Z100 this time not the FDR-AX1. PXW-Z100 (XDCAM 4K Handheld Camcorder) - YouTube

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
Glen, what are going to deliver on! :) When I watched some 4k at Fry's the other day I was not floored. It looked very nice and you could walk up close to the TV and it did not pixelate. But at normal viewing distances it did not look that much better than my television at home. Certainly not so much to be an early adopter.

Give me dynamic range and light sensitivity. Resolution is a gimmic that you the viewer adapts to and focuses back on content after the glow fades away. I do not want cameras that are a bit crippled just to give more pixels. It is just too early for me. Heck, I can not find a good preview monitor larger than 5-7" that is even 720p! what are folks going to do with 4k??

As far as HD going away!!!? Seriously, this is just the type of conversation Sony wants flying around internet forums. HD is not going away. All television is 720p or 1080i and that will not change for a long time. People still want DVDs of what I shoot. Where does 4k fit into this universe? I agree with Gabe.

What will I deliver 4K on? Hmm, right now, nothing. ;-)
But the Z100 will also shoot in 10-bit, 4:2;2 HD, so it's still a useful tool until 4K becomes more widespread - and it will, does anyone doubt that now?
HD is not going away anytime soon, of course not. I own 2 HD cameras, I'm happy with them. But increased resolution IS the future, that I do believe. And that future is coming upon us, faster than most would think - or like, apparently.

And better resolution is a gimmick? I flat disagree with that statement. Was it a gimmick when HD resolution replaced SD? Are the BM4K, F55 and Epic cameras gimmicks because they do 4K? Is the upcoming Alexa 4K a gimmick? 4K is indeed more than pixel counting, but who's to say this new camera won't make great looking images? So far, I've been impressed with the limited videos I've seen. Not F55 levels of images, but still, this is a $6,500 camera. Please keep that in mind, people. It will have compromises. No productions looking for an F55 are going to settle for a Z100.
And I'll take the XAVC 10-bit, 4:2:2 codec, that's certainly not a gimmick.

And I did see the 4K monitor next to regular HD monitors, and yes, the difference was very noticeable. I preferred the 4K, what can I say?

It's funny, how I've heard on this site that before the RED cameras came about, Sony and the other manufacturers "forced" 1080 video upon us as the new norm for film making. How Jannard and the RED made us all realize the creative freedom and beauty of 4K.
Now, I'm hearing how Sony is "forcing" us to adopt 4K as the new norm. Hmm, OK.
I guess Canon, RED, Arri, JVC , Black Magic and eventually Panasonic are also "forcing" us to adopt 4K, just to sell product.

I do not know if this camera will end up being seen more as a gimmick than a creative tool. Perhaps its small sensor will forever handicap it as a viable broadcast camera. Time will tell. I do think Sony is offering an affordable solution for 4K for those who want to be early adopters.
I'll admit to being "dazzled" by the idea of finally being able to afford a true 4K camera, even if I can't justify actually delivering 4K content right now. But if what I've heard is true, that shooting in 4K and delivering in HD looks incredible, then that is vindication for me. Bottom line, if my clients are happy, I'm happy. And besides, it still shoots XAVC HD.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 11:03 AM   #116
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

At the moment one can get a PMW160 with list of $7790, 1/3 chips recording 422 8bit to SxS cards at 50Mbps MXF wrapper. For $6500 a PMW-Z100 recording 10bit 422 with effect 1/3 chip recording to XQD cards at 220 Mbps MXF wrapper and with a bonus of recording 10bit 422 4k at 60P. Just comparing 1920x1080 the PMW-Z100 is the winner dont you think ?

Comparing the FDR-AX1 to the NX5U comes up with the same conclusion for me.

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Old September 8th, 2013, 11:13 AM   #117
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

Quote:
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At the moment one can get a PMW160 with list of $7790, 1/3 chips recording 422 8bit to SxS cards at 50Mbps MXF wrapper. For $6500 a PMW-Z100 recording 10bit 422 with effect 1/3 chip recording to XQD cards at 220 Mbps MXF wrapper and with a bonus of recording 10bit 422 4k at 60P. Just comparing 1920x1080 the PMW-Z100 is the winner dont you think ?

Comparing the FDR-AX1 to the NX5U comes up with the same conclusion for me.

Ron Evans
I cannot argue with your logic.

I wonder, could Sony have put the 1/2.3" chip in a PMW-200 body? The lens is designed for a 1/2" sensor. Could the 1/2.3" chip work with that lens?
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Old September 8th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #118
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
I own 2 HD cameras, I'm happy with them. But increased resolution IS the future, that I do believe. And that future is coming upon us, faster than most would think - or like, apparently.
Nearly all cable channels are still 720p60. My doubling of resolution would be 1080p60. 80+" flat screen TVs are just about here, be they 2K or 4K. I've seen "House of Cards" in full Netflix SuperHD (1080p24 at no more than 8 Mbps) on a 100 Mbps business-class Internet line, and while it looks fantastic, it doesn't look noticeably better than NatGeo on 720p60 on Comcast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
And I did see the 4K monitor next to regular HD monitors, and yes, the difference was very noticeable.
No side-by-side comparison is necessary with either of the Sony 4K TVs to know you're watching something you haven't seen before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
But if what I've heard is true, that shooting in 4K and delivering in HD looks incredible, then that is vindication for me. Bottom line, if my clients are happy, I'm happy. And besides, it still shoots XAVC HD.
Future proof. Collect 4K footage now and be able to submit in 10 years. Still, I would upgrade to a 500-600 MBps I-Frame native 1080p60 camera unless these new Sony 4K's do as well or better than an EX1 + Nanoflash in low light.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 10:49 PM   #119
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

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I cannot argue with your logic.

I wonder, could Sony have put the 1/2.3" chip in a PMW-200 body? The lens is designed for a 1/2" sensor. Could the 1/2.3" chip work with that lens?
It's more about the resolving resolution of the lens. The Fujinon in the 200 is more designed for HD, so it wouldn't resolve past that as far as the full rez of 4K. Also, a single sensor block can possibly fit a bigger sensor like 2/3'' in something like a PMW-200 body, but slightly bigger, while at the same time smaller than an F3 or F5.

Slap an SD lens on a PMW-350 (which I've seen local stations do) and you'll see uncorrected CA everywhere and blurry picture as opposed to sharp picture.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:12 AM   #120
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Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM

According to my very unscientific tests, I simply converted XAVC rushes to ProRes. They doubled in size. I made Proxy files of XAVC rushes - they were half the size of the original.

So, at the moment, XAVC seems to be a very well balanced codec if - IF - you have the horsepower to run it. It's sort of, erm, generally like the big hairy chested version of AVCHD - XAVC is based on the highest level of H.264, tuned for the most voluminous bit rates. It's pretty computationally intensive for all but the newest, fastest computers - but that situation won't last long (as next year's newest, fastest computers will cope far better, and in two or three years time you're back to what HD felt like a few years ago. LOL
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