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Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:17 PM   #31
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

I was going to say, that 4K in the C100 Mk. II would be an unrealistic expectation, since the C300 doesn't have it... never mind the competitors; Canon isn't about to undercut its own product line.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:22 PM   #32
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson View Post
Just got back from shooting all day with my C100 and PMW-300. .
Andy, can you share a link to a video you have done that is a good mix of the PMW-300 and C100? ( I have the PMW-300, so would be tempted now by the new C100).

Thanks!
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 07:03 PM   #33
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by Pavel Sedlak View Post
Interesting, I think that two green samples (2x1920x1080) and one red and blue (2x1920x1080) samples mean no debayering, but Canon company seems to make something new .-) .
More down to semantics than technology - it's a Bayer sensor, so will need "deBayering" in one sense...... But you're right - it's not "deBayering" in the normal way.
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
I was going to say, that 4K in the C100 Mk. II would be an unrealistic expectation, since the C300 doesn't have it... never mind the competitors; Canon isn't about to undercut its own product line.
Quite true - but it may have been expected that updated C100 and C300 models would have come out together?

It just seems that no 4k and only AVC-HD are one thing in a camera of this type that came out a little while back - but a bit disappointing now in a new model? Especially AVC-HD - couldn't they at least have given XDCAM 422? It just seems a bit too incremental a change, but I suppose it is a MkII - not a totally new model.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 07:36 PM   #34
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
I was going to say, that 4K in the C100 Mk. II would be an unrealistic expectation, since the C300 doesn't have it... never mind the competitors; Canon isn't about to undercut its own product line.
It doesn't have it "now". The new C300 and 500 probably are not ready yet. However, I suspect that Canon will do a 4K upgrade for all three models at the same time. When the time comes. (I'm guessing a 10 bit C300 MK2 is in the works)

Canon MUST be hoping for a two or three year shelf life for the C100 MK2. (This is standard for a new or updated Pro camcorder) I cant imagine that Canon will release ANOTHER 4K Super35 camera to compete with the C100 mk2 within the next 2 or 3 years.

I seriously, can't imagine that Canon will go another 2 years of NAB and IBC shows with NO new 4k s35 offering. No way!! They can't let Sony, Panny, AJA and BlackMagic steal that much of Canon's market share. It's way to risky. And for what?

What would Canon gain by holding off on 4k for the next 2+ years? If they are going to refresh their EOS line, it makes sense to add 4k at this point.

Does anybody believe that Canon will wait two more years to release a new 4K cameras? (Wait until this new EOS refresh shelf-life has ended?)

No,..Canon wont wait that long. That's why I believe that the C100 mk2 has 4K hardware inside. (30p 8 bit 4:2:0) This will give the C100 mk2 the 2 or 3+ years of shelf life that it needs.

This also will allow it to compete with Sony's next two+ year tidal wave of new 4k models and keep Canon relevant.

I think we will see a Canon NAB 2015 C100 mk2 firmware upgrade. (possibly a paid one)

Just reading my admittedly crazy crystal ball.

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; October 22nd, 2014 at 08:59 PM.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 12:17 AM   #35
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by Galen Rath View Post
Andy, can you share a link to a video you have done that is a good mix of the PMW-300 and C100? ( I have the PMW-300, so would be tempted now by the new C100).

Thanks!
Galen, almost everything I've been doing this year (especially since I got my PMW-300) is covered by NDA/client confidential...that's the nature of working with some very well known companies.

However, there are a few shots using both cameras in some of the Magpas Helimedix films which you can view on Youtube via links near the top of my What We Do page on my Shooting Image Ltd website (and also on Vimeo).

Different tools for different uses but both excellent in their niches and with much overlap. Love them both, equally.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 03:22 AM   #36
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
More down to semantics than technology - it's a Bayer sensor, so will need "deBayering" in one sense...... But you're right - it's not "deBayering" in the normal way.
I can't agree with you, it is not about "semantics", it is directly about technology.

C100 use 4K sensor, it is the same sensor as C500 camera use. If you want 4K from C500 than you need debayering (color interpolation from several pixels).

But if you want 2K or HD, you don't need debayering - color interpolation, all color information is true, because all pixels have its own color information from chip. Canon adds both green channels for better sensitivity, but there is no interpolation for color information (sensor gives 8:4:4 signal).

I mean that this is not about "semantics", it is directly about technology.

add:
There is some "phase combination" of green channels for less moire:
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/pr...hite-paper.pdf

The half-pixel offset between to two sampling lattices introduces a powerful anti-aliasing
mechanism into the final summed green video component — both horizontally and vertically.
That pixel offset shifts the phase of the first order sideband of Green Gb by 180 degrees with
respect to that of Green Ga. Thus, when the two components are summed to form the final
green video signal output these sideband spectra cancel each other. The cancellation of these
sidebands effectively defeats the Nyquist limitation and allows the useful green MTF to extend
beyond the Nyquist frequency of 1080 TVL/ph as shown below in Figure 6.

But no debayering, this 4K sensor was designed for RGB444 with no debayering:

The new Canon image sensor was designed to avoid the demosaicking process ENTIRELY.
It instead relies on innovations in pixel addressing and associated readout mechanisms to
separately extract the three RGB video components — as described in a separate Canon.
white paper [5].

- so new Canon EOS C100 MarkII hasn't "a better debayering" due new DIGIC DV4, it is not a true information.

Last edited by Pavel Sedlak; October 23rd, 2014 at 03:59 AM. Reason: phase combination for less moire
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 04:27 AM   #37
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

I don't understand this:

The Canon DIGIC DV4 image processor separates the RGB output from the camera’s 8.3 Megapixel CMOS imager into THREE individual 8 megapixel signals (as opposed to 2MB in the EOS C100)

...for noticeably improved image quality. The Canon DIGIC DV4 processor also includes a new debayering algorithm to help minimize moiré and reduce video noise even at high ISO speeds. (high-sensitivity recording on the camera ranges from ISO 320 to 80,000).

----

Why somebody needs three 8 megapixels for HD image?

If this is true then it is clean that canon really needs big colors interpolation and you are right, but I really don't understand why? When you have wonderfull CMOS chip for HD at RGB444 designed for no debayering?

Really nice question, why you need three 8MPx for three 2MPx output :-)) . Is it a new protection of future new higher models :-) ? I can't believe to this sort of processing.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 04:58 AM   #38
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

Thus, the C100 Mark II DIGIC DV4 processor internally interpolate the 4K (QHD) resolution as three RGB signals, each has 8MPx (this means RGB444) fot "the best image quality" (at HD right now .-) ).

The C100 Mark II then does some down conversion from 4K 50p/60p to HD 50p/60p, it is really a different way processing than the old C100 has (it works with no debayering from 4K sensor).

I assume the next year we'll see a new 4K Canon cine camera (C200 or MarkIII), this is only about new recording now.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 08:37 AM   #39
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
We know Sony is working on a "100" 4k model right now...thats a fact. It would make perfect sense that it will be a locked down 8bit only PXW-FS7.
Cliff, where is this stated as 'fact'? Where are you getting this information from?
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 09:17 AM   #40
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

You are right. This is not actually a perfect "fact".

It is entirely possible that Sony will never EVER make another "100" level Super35 camera again. And, it's also statistically possible that Sony has no more future plans for ANY other 4K cameras again too!

So to say that its a "fact" that Sony is working on ANY new 4k models...it actually not true for me to declare at all as "fact".

("100 level" meaning: Entry price point - "FS100" or "C100" class $5k-$6k 8 bit 4:2:0 codec model)

Call me crazy but I somehow completely believe that Sony will build another "100" class camcorder again in the future to fill that marketing void and challenge Canon's C100 again. (And even Panny's AF101)

Yes, I'd say it's a forgone conclusion unless the company goes bankrupt....which statistically "could" happen.

CT ;-)

Last edited by Cliff Totten; October 23rd, 2014 at 10:12 AM.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 12:32 PM   #41
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

The big disadvantage with all Canon cameras is the lack of a codec developed in house. I think thats the main reason they haven't roll out 4K cameras yet.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 01:03 PM   #42
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

Yes and no......Canon did develop the XF codec. Now it was a derivative of the XDcam codec developed by Sony, but Canon has a bit of history in taking an existing codec and improving it. They did that with HDV....

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Old October 23rd, 2014, 05:11 PM   #43
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by Pavel Sedlak View Post
But no debayering, this 4K sensor was designed for RGB444 with no debayering:
Not quite - the sensor was designed for a dual function - 4:4:4 1080 via "simple readout", or 4k via normal deBayering (as the case with the C500)

(Pavel - I'm in full agreement with with what you say technically - it's just how the processes are described.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel Sedlak View Post
I don't understand this:

The Canon DIGIC DV4 image processor separates the RGB output from the camera’s 8.3 Megapixel CMOS imager into THREE individual 8 megapixel signals (as opposed to 2MB in the EOS C100)

...for noticeably improved image quality.----

Why somebody needs three 8 megapixels for HD image?
Yes, good questions.....!

Fundamentally, it sounds like the DIGIC DV4 is doing a full deBayer - that's effectively what the three 8 Megapixel R,G,B images are!

I for one cannot believe that that extra complexity has been introduced solely to improve the quality of the 1080 image - though it may do that somewhat - it's effectively doing a full deBayer to get 4k, then a downscale to 1080 HD.

What I infer is that the camera front end is now fully capable of a 4k output - even if not enabled in this camera. Hence, the likely prime reason for the new processor is to use such in a forthcoming 4k camera model. As others have said, the question remains as to what codec Canon will use to do that - but they must be seen as readying the ground with this new front end.

It raises the interesting question of whether a future firmware upgrade could enable the 4k ability. I'm of no doubt that as far as camera front end and processing goes it is likely up to it - the question is what the coder is capable of? Is it an AVC-HD coder, period, or something more sophisticated with only the AVC-HD ability enabled at the moment?

Either way, I fully expect to see a new 4k camera from Canon before long - and something along the lines of an updated C300 seems most likely. I'll stick my neck out and predict most likely before NAB, but we'll see.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 06:05 PM   #44
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
...I for one cannot believe that that extra complexity has been introduced solely to improve the quality of the 1080 image - though it may do that somewhat - it's effectively doing a full deBayer to get 4k, then a downscale to 1080 HD.

What I infer is that the camera front end is now fully capable of a 4k output - even if not enabled in this camera. Hence, the likely prime reason for the new processor is to use such in a forthcoming 4k camera model. As others have said, the question remains as to what codec Canon will use to do that - but they must be seen as readying the ground with this new front end.
Yes, it is 4K camera without 4K output, a little crazy thing for me. C500 is 4K/2K 10bit/12bit camera, I think that the C100 will remain at 8bit, but as a customer I will need at least one 4K output for my pleasure with C100 MarkII, it has 4K internal processing and only DC to HD at the end .-) ? Put 1k USD on table a get ProRes 4K license for this camera.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 07:40 PM   #45
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Re: Canon Announces 2nd Generation EOS C100 Mark II

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Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
Not quite - the sensor was designed for a dual function - 4:4:4 1080 via "simple readout", or 4k via normal deBayering (as the case with the C500)

(Pavel - I'm in full agreement with with what you say technically - it's just how the processes are described.)

Yes, good questions.....!

Fundamentally, it sounds like the DIGIC DV4 is doing a full deBayer - that's effectively what the three 8 Megapixel R,G,B images are!

I for one cannot believe that that extra complexity has been introduced solely to improve the quality of the 1080 image - though it may do that somewhat - it's effectively doing a full deBayer to get 4k, then a downscale to 1080 HD.

What I infer is that the camera front end is now fully capable of a 4k output - even if not enabled in this camera. Hence, the likely prime reason for the new processor is to use such in a forthcoming 4k camera model. As others have said, the question remains as to what codec Canon will use to do that - but they must be seen as readying the ground with this new front end.

It raises the interesting question of whether a future firmware upgrade could enable the 4k ability. I'm of no doubt that as far as camera front end and processing goes it is likely up to it - the question is what the coder is capable of? Is it an AVC-HD coder, period, or something more sophisticated with only the AVC-HD ability enabled at the moment?

Either way, I fully expect to see a new 4k camera from Canon before long - and something along the lines of an updated C300 seems most likely. I'll stick my neck out and predict most likely before NAB, but we'll see.
Absolutely right. I just cant fathom Canon going through all the trouble of creating a new C100 and then getting behind it for the next 3 years as a "1080-only" camera. It would just be eaten alive by Sony and Panny in that time. Sony already has a FULL fleet of 1080-only models today and enough to get them to the "end of life" for 1080 shooting. (what they have today could last for 5 years now) So, I imagine that 4k is now 100% in all their bluprints for all their new designs moving forward.

BTW,...for any 4K haters out there.....4K cameras that shoot in 1080 make 1080 look amazing. Yup, even for shooters that "Dont need or don't care about 4k anyway"

Remember when folks used to say: "I dont need HD because HD is a waste of space and NOBODY is asking me for it" lol ;-)

As far as the CODEC? Sony's XAVC is not really a "codec" from Sony. The higher h.264 profiles have existed for years and years. Sony just pulled the specification they liked from the same H.264 book that everybody else has access to. They simply wrap it the way they want and give it a logo. Canon could easily do the same with h.264 and call it their own name. (They could just make a single file structure in a common .mp4 container?)

I have read that Sony has developed some pretty sophisticated encoding chips though and they have some neat techniques for crunching the math.

The CODEC should not be hard. Panasonic is also doing the same thing with that good old h.264 standard.

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; October 23rd, 2014 at 09:47 PM.
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