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Old January 10th, 2016, 01:39 PM   #16
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

I gather the Logmar people are involved in the design of the Kodak camera, although the mechanics are different to that of their Logmar S-8 and "is a "standard slot-in" cassette super8 camera".
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Old January 14th, 2016, 06:17 AM   #17
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

Kodak's pitch on Super 8 and the new cameras.

Pro Video Coalition - Kodak revives the Super 8 film camera by Jose Antunes
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Old January 14th, 2016, 12:05 PM   #18
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

Looking at the second photo in that article I initially thought they were loading the cartridge horizontally instead of vertically - but I realize now that they just have the camera on it's side.

But it got me thinking - at this point, without a lot of need for legacy format support/compatibility, why not mount the cartridge horizontally (similar to IMAX) in order to capture a larger widescreen frame which has an area closer to super 16? It would obviously reduce run times, but for the trade-off of significantly higher image quality it seems like it would be worth it.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 11:29 AM   #19
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

I suspect Super 16 makes more sense at that point once you start costing things. There are currently great prices on 16mm professional cameras at the moment.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 05:23 AM   #20
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

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Originally Posted by Evan Donn View Post
But it got me thinking - at this point, without a lot of need for legacy format support/compatibility, why not mount the cartridge horizontally (similar to IMAX) in order to capture a larger widescreen frame which has an area closer to super 16? It would obviously reduce run times, but for the trade-off of significantly higher image quality it seems like it would be worth it.
I think the concept of a 2.5 minute run time (50 ft cartridge shooting 24fps) alone is going to be daunting enough for many users, especially those who have come up in the "keep it rolling" 1's and 0's era. Cutting that time down further with a horizontal format would make it a beyond-niche concept, I would think! I once worked on an IMAX doc with the Iwerks 8/70 (8 perf horizontal 70mm) camera. The 500 ft loads also ran about 2.5 minutes and we were capturing unpredictable action. Each time we had rolled half a mag it became a crap shoot and ensuing discussion of whether or not to reload and risk missing something.

I am intrigued at how well this new Super 8 camera will sit with those who again have come up in a paradigm where media is re-useable and once purchased, the process of shooting becomes effectivey "free". $20-30 per minute for acquisition is a very different notion for today's hobbyist or indie filmmaker.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 05:40 PM   #21
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

I certainly have nostalgia for film - both 8mm and 16mm - but there comes a point where common sense says that some things are best left in the past.

Ask yourself one simple question. If manufacturers had presented together the first Super8 camera and a modern high-definition digital camera as "the proposed new thing" in 1965, do you think there is even the remotest chance Super 8 would ever have left the drawing board? Personally I believe it would have been comparable to the Alexandra palace TV trials in 1936. Bairds (mechanical) system went head to head with the EMI/RCA system and the latter was so overwhelmingly superior that the trial didn't even go it's full duration. And that was in all respects: technical quality, convenience - you name it.

And it's the same here. It's not simply a quality issue, it's everything from running cost to convenience, the delay of processing - everything. Even that Super 8 will now require separate sound recording and syncing. If you presented Super 8 and a digital HD camera to someone who had never seen a moving picture before, which do you think they'd go for? Super 8 was the best that could be done for it's proposed market at the time of introduction with the technology available. If HD digital had been an option then, Super 8 would never have even got onto the drawing board, let alone off it!

I've heard it said "but it has that unique look". Which may be true - but it's inferior! It only gets any praise because of nostalgia. And decent software can do a pretty good job of old film emulation - Super 8 will never be able to rival HD in quality terms, even if it was run through horizontally. Sorry, I see this purely in marketing gimmickry terms - not serious photographic. Kodak trying a desperate last gasp at capitalising on it's past.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 06:28 PM   #22
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

There is an aesthetic aspect to this, different mediums offer different "looks" and textures. What matters is less the technical accuracy, but how appropriate it is for the production it's being used in.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 06:02 PM   #23
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

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There is an aesthetic aspect to this, different mediums offer different "looks" and textures.
Yes indeed, and in the sense that some productions may be suited by saturated colours, others by subtle colours, and some productions may need softening, others more edgy etc etc I couldn't be more in agreement.

The point I was trying to make is that if a modern HD camera with a range of controls to achieve exactly such had been around for a while, then someone invented film and Super8 and said "hey, what about this new look!" I just don't think they'd get very far. It would simply be seen as inferior in pretty well every way - short running time, separate sound, expense of media, delay due to processing, soft image, weave, grain, poor in low light - you name it.

If anyone really is interested in this for aesthetic reasons, I'd still maintain is it's because of nostalgia, not because of any inherent strength over modern electronic cameras. (Also worth saying it has taken electronic video 50 years to really rival film in some key aspects such as dynamic range. It always used to be the case for most of my career that it was a case of strengths and weaknesses - horses for courses - between the two. But now it's become very difficult to make a sensible case for film on any course.)
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Old January 18th, 2016, 03:15 AM   #24
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

If Super 8 came out now, it's main attraction would probably be to the arts community or experimental film makers rather than the mass market, However, you just can't tell what becomes the cool thing to have in the modern world, although, in this case, it won't be for instant gratification.

Like all arts or media, there is a history, so any meduim used carries associations that rise and fall in people's minds and can bring up different emotions. These can be nightmarish as well as nostalgic depending on the context.

The imperfections are what makes it useful.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 03:58 AM   #25
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

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Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
Thatís good news. I donít have to get rid of our Bolex Super 8 after all.
Oh screw Super 8 -- I still have my dad's Double 8 camera (that's for 16 mm film stock that they split in half after developing -- i.e., when you have shot on one side, you have to find a dark place, open up the camera, flip the reel, and then shoot on the other 8 mm half. Most bizarre, but that was the cream of the top back then... and hence the camera I grew up with. It even did realtime seamless frame-rates (over/under cranking) and stop motion, etc.

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Old January 20th, 2016, 11:24 AM   #26
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

I can see the attraction of film for certain niche applications, but why on earth would anyone go for 8mm? It will be lower resolution than miniDV - probably more like VHS! If you have to have film, maybe 16mm makes some sense... If Kodak have R&D dollars to spend, better to put them into making 16mm as affordable and easy-to-use as possible, surely?

And another thing - who wants negative cine film? You can't project it, so it has to either be scanned (so you end up with video shown on a TV - better do that with a video camera) or printed to make a positive copy that can be projected. Maybe if it takes off, they'll add Ektachrome or, my old favourite, Kodachrome to the product line?
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Old January 20th, 2016, 02:17 PM   #27
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

As far as the process goes, it reminds me of shooting medium format stills. Unfortunately, the low quality of 8mm and the ephemeral nature of video keep it from offering similar value. When I shoot medium format, I really take the effort to make each image special. The goal is to have great art that is at least worth scanning and printing and if it's especially good, the photo will deserve time in the darkroom. It will also be worthy of a nice frame, glass and matte as well as a spot on the wall. It's the opposite of a cell phone photo, which gets some bytes on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook at best.

For the extra effort of shooting and processing film, the footage needs to also be good enough to end up in a place of honor - a nicely finished work. It could be worthwhile for art with an 8mm aesthetic, but that's a rare situation. I don't see myself using 8mm, but for that special project that needs that look, yeah, I'd rather shoot real 8mm than try to fake it in post. But I don't think I'd make a business plan around it.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 04:43 PM   #28
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Re: FILM FILM FILM! Kodak's back baby... Kodak's back.

I was a late convert to DV, even now I have 10 rolls of Fuji Single8 R25 in the fridge and will never sell my Fujica P1 and ZC1000 cameras, Amazing but Fuji only finally gave up processing the film 5 years ago in Japan so not as retro as you think. I sat up and noticed this with great excitement but the dream is better than the reality, 8mm is just too small, I just played back a 20 min film from 25 years ago which cost me over £400 even then plus Rank flying spot transfer on top, at the time against VHS it was incredible but now VS Full frame 4k on tiny A7s???

I guess this boat has sailed
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