Canon USA reveals EOS 5D Mk. IV with 4K, new L-Series Lenses

[Chris Hurd]

Dan has succinctly and concisely expressed the 5D facts so well that I wouldn't know how to improve upon them. The Canon EOS 5D line has always been *first and foremost* a photographer's camera. Three of the four 5D iterations include a video recording mode, but that feature has *always* been *secondary* to its role as a still photo camera.

I'm sure that Canon has been delighted that some (many?) videographers have chosen to shoot video with EOS cameras, but that's not what their chief purpose is, nor will it ever be. For that, there's Cinema EOS as Dan correctly points out. Canon is going to blur the two separate product lines only slightly.

[Jim Martin]

Ditto here.....I'm so exasperated by the complaints on the various boards complaining that basically, the video sucks...as they are expecting a C300 MK II in a DSLR body for $3000.....just delusional.

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

[Steven Digges]

+1 Dan, Chris, and Jim! Said so well.

I am going to take it a step farther and explain a camera marketing strategy that manufacturers have used since the early eighties and is still mostly true today. I will explain why new technology and features appear first in models like a 5D that are a step down from a top tier flagship model where one might think new tech would go first.

First, please do not read a lot into my use of terms like “full time professional” or “serious amateur” or “enthusiast”. I am not even sure which terms to use because I am not judging or labeling anyone. I mean no offence, it is simply part of the marketing strategy.

The 5D is a classic example of why new tech shows up second teir first instead of in the flagship EOS1 series (I know this is not always the case).

Sometimes, flagship models are slow to receive revisions and new model iterations because the full time professional is more concerned about his return on investment than new technology and convenience features. The top tier shooter has made a huge investment in his top of the line gear. They do NOT run out and upgrade it every year for the “latest and greatest features”. It takes a truly new innovation that will genuinely improve the quality of his product before the top tier pro will consider replacing his expensive flagship model. Ten cool new convenience features do not achieve that. It may even take a new technological improvement that clients understand and ask for before he upgrades. Case in point being things like MAJOR changes in resolution, format, or workflow. Or most importantly a new innovation that will allow him to create an image he could not shoot before. Big low light improvements being the first one that comes to mind.

On the other hand, there is a HUGE market of consumers in the (here comes the labels I’m not sure about using) semi pro, serious hobbyist, working professional, low budget film maker, and high disposable income class. That is the primary market for the 5D.

I am willing to bet the average DVINFO contributor underestimates the number of Canon 5D cameras out there owned by the photographic hobbyist (serious amateurs) with high level disposable income. That group still reads popular photography and Luminous Landscape. They are not hanging out here on DVINFO. Many of them do not know what a slider or jib is but their numbers are not to be underestimated. That is because they help drive new releases of second tier camera models like the 5D.

The seasoned professional knows it is his talent, knowledge, and experience that will determine the quality of his images. To the hard core amateur new features are often perceived as must have improvements over the model they currently have. Convenience features or new feature upgrades are sometimes mistakenly perceived as a way to dramatically improve the quality of their images.

Today, websites, forums, and paper publishing drive the “feature frenzy” to astonishingly high levels. Just like this thread is doing. Canon and every other manufacturer know that and play the game very well.
All of this is why you are not likely to see a new model of the Canon EOS1d C come along until they have a significant improvement to put into it.
Just food for thought……………………

Kind Regards,

Steve

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

as they are expecting a C300 MK II in a DSLR body for $3000.....just delusional.

On the contrary, as someone who owns a C300 Mark II, I don't want, nor expect all of that in a DSLR body for $3500. What I want is a compact, smaller version with a similar color science as a second camera and as a backup body for jobs in which I have to travel light, i.e. destination shoots.

I would love for the XC10 to fit this bill for me, and it's so close to being what I need I can smell it, but unfortunately that fixed lens is a no-go, and the resulting footage is just far too soft for my liking. I want actual resolved detail, not just reported dimensions. All Canon had to do was give the XC10 an EF-M mount and then, hey, now we're talking, but they went in another direction and it's not suitable.

I am using a Sony A7R Mark II for this now, a camera with more resolution (42.5MP vs 30MP), more options (both full frame and APS-C 4K video), EVF for video, a Log profile, and peaking/magnified focus assist while recording. However, it's 8-bit 4:2:0 for every shooting mode (5D4 is only 4:2:0 in the 1080 modes), has a much different look that the C300 Mark II (necessitating a lot of post work to match), overheating (though we'll have to see if the 5D4 has this issue at all with the new 4K recording mode), requires a third-party adapter for my lens collection, and poor battery life. But, guess what? I make it work, and the workarounds are less annoying than what I would need for the 5D Mark IV to get the basic tools I need to deliver a proper image.

The 5D4 also requires brand-new media for me to purchase, as I have never owned CompactFlash cards, and even for those who have them already, the 4K 500Mbps rate probably requires them to purchase newer cards. Why not CFast? Already got a nice collection of those! At least the 1DX gets this right, and is a better option for me than the 5D4, but it also does not have Clog or Peaking/Mag. Assist (the VFs on the Canons will never be useable for video because they are not electronic).

What does the 5D Mark IV need for me to dump Sony? At the very least, CLog and Peaking. That's really it. I would also prefer Mag. Assist while recording, but I need peaking at the very least. I would also like 8-bit 422 MJPEG for the 1080 modes as well, but the CompactFlash slot probably makes that not a valid option (for 120p).

See? I'm personally not asking for the world, but my god, I'm not going to use a Z-Finder and focus by eye on this damn thing. And using the touchscreen and relying on DPAF does not work when you're outside and can barely see the screen. And having to lug around a monitor or EVF to use defeats the whole purpose of having a self-contained camera to begin with for, what I consider, very basic and useable video features.

[Peer Landa]

Regarding video, I wonder what differences there are between the 5D4 and the 1DX2. Since the old 1DC is now the only DSLR with C-log, maybe there's a 1DC2 in the pipe..? Btw, the 1DC is currently listed at just under $5k at B&H.

-- peer

[Mark Watson]

Originally Posted by Rob Cantwell

I got an email from Canon Europe they want €4,899.99 according to their web site, i'll be keeping the 5D Mk III for a while yet.

If it makes you feel any better, it will be available in Japan at Yodobashi Camera for 467,100 JPY. At an exchange rate of 98 JPY to $1.00 USD, that would cost me $4766.33. I usually order my cameras from B&H and if they won't ship to Japan, then I use a 3rd party.

I'd be curious to know the pixel size if anybody has that info. Or if you can't give a number, maybe tell how it compares to the 6.4 micron pixel pitch of the 6D.


Mark

On a side note, it never ceases to amaze me how interested people are in what camera someone else is buying. Who cares? Do your own research and buy what you want/need.

[Wil Vermeesch]

Looks great camera but can someone explain me the reason why there is a so huge difference in price between USA and Europe (> 600,- USD).

[Nick Fotis]

VAT maybe? (USA prices do not include sales tax, which is different per state)

N. F.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

+1 Dan, Chris, and Jim! Said so well...

...On the other hand, there is a HUGE market of consumers in the (here comes the labels I’m not sure about using) semi pro, serious hobbyist, working professional, low budget film maker, and high disposable income class. That is the primary market for the 5D...

The lines are continuing to get blurrier. Clearly the C300m2 is a desirable camera in many markets, but so is the 5D series. Different markets, of course.

I'd expand Steve's "semi pro" category to include more; down-market weddings & events, students, budding indies, documentarians sans cash, corporate in-house, etc.

We're witnessing a great democratization of access to the tools of production, and a Canon DSLR will shoot rings around the broadcast cameras I started on. I'd give every encouragement to those moving up from a sub-$1000 camera to consider the 5Dm4.

On the other hand, one of the best deals going in budget filmmaking is a C100m1, which is a mind-blowing value at $2,500 or $3k with DPAF.

And, what's wrong with a hobby camera? Or a cheap cam that supports a good cause? I've never made money with DSLR video, but on a good day, when the ergonomics don't get in the way, it shoots just fine!

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

We're witnessing a great democratization of access to the tools of production, and a Canon DSLR will shoot rings around the broadcast cameras I started on.

We're not. That democratization has already come and gone, and it happens a number of years ago. What we are seeing now are the modest improvements after the revolution. After all, the 4K is still 8-bit, and in MotionJPEG, which is about 3 generations old now, as far as codec efficiency goes. The 1080 modes are still the same codec from the 5D3.

I'd give every encouragement to those moving up from a sub-$1000 camera to consider the 5Dm4.

I wouldn't, because at that level, what exactly are you getting that will make any difference? It's just for the shits and giggles at that point. If you are making money with the work you are doing with your sub-$1000 camera, then it's probably time to consider something larger, an FS5, and FS7, C300 Mark II, or even up from there. If it's hard for you to get to the point where you'd consider dropping $3k to go from a Pansonic GH-series, or a Canon T-series, or a Blackmagic PocketCam, then I'm assuming money is tight (i.e. you're not making enough to consider $6k and up) and thus your clients are in no position to demand (or probably even want in the first place) 4K and you're only considering such an upgrade because of gear lust.

I've never made money with DSLR video, but on a good day, when the ergonomics don't get in the way, it shoots just fine!

Funny, because I made it through commenting without reading the very last line here, which proves my point. Since you are not making money with DSLR video, then you should not be encouraging anyone to plunk down $3500 + new media (that CompactFlash that most people have probably cannot sustain 500Mbps for 4K anyway, plus the cards will need to be larger than the common 32GB to be useful anyway).

If you're on a camera purchased in the last 5 years, there is no reason to consider just willy-nilly upgrading to the 5D Mark IV. It's not a good video cam. It's a good stills cam that has some killer features that has video when you need it. It's not necessarily good for video. It has no Log, no WideDR, no peaking, no mag. assist while recording, a fixed screen, no EVF, basic audio. Frankly, nothing outside of DPAF (which I do love, don't get me wrong) and 4K. And if you've come this far with 1080 and are still not making money with DSLR video, then 4K is not going to change that.

[Jon Fairhurst]

In my case, the interest is in efficient use of cash. For $3,500 one gets a world class stills camera. If you can get (near) world class video in the same package and same lenses, that's a win. Yeah, there are limitations and workarounds, but if you're not in a pressure cooker, you can take a few extra moments without a problem. And if you already have DSLR accessories, you're good to go.

So the question is, if I jump through some hoops, can I make video that punches above it's weight? With windowed 4K, this is the first 5D to capture truly non-aliased video. (I'm not including Magic Lantern Raw, which windows down to 1/3 of the sensor and has a devilish workflow.) I expect that it will continue to have Canon's nice skin tones and handling of highlights. It will have excellent chroma resolution, so it should also pull nice keys.

The one downside is that the output is limited to 8-bits. Recently for photography (still on the 5D2), I've been doing more of a JPEG workflow. That means nailing the settings and framing up front. I can crop as needed on the iPad and ship it.

With 8-bit video, we don't get a Hollywood, super-hero grading output. But we can get a nice realistic or B&W output, which goes back to the original 5D2 video market of photojournalists. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the C100 MkII also limited to 8-bits? For 10 or 12 bits, bump your credit line and get the C300.)

Of course, the 5D4 also has (photo-style, dual shutter) HDR. Given the 8-bit workflow, this is killer, As long as motion isn't too bad (and we don't get ghosting), this should help us fill the 8-bit space without blowing out highlights, showing overly dark faces, or shooting overly flat without enough bits to do it justice.

The last component is compression. With Motion JPEG at a firehose rate, the results (if not one's media budget) should be exceptional.

So as long as one is willing to put up with DSLR limits, one can get 8 bit video without any additional significant compromises in video quality. For about the same money, one could get a C100 MkII, but you give up the killer stills camera in return for a better workflow, more convenience, and fewer bolt-on bits in the field. With HDR and 4K, the 5D4 might even deliver the better video result in some cases.

I can see the dedicated video pro getting the C100 MkII and the occasional videographer/photographer buying the 5D4. And with talent, both can make great pictures. But if you want to film your script for Ultraviolet Neon Lava Spark Woman, get the C300.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Nice summary, Jon!

Gary, I appreciate your point of view, but do have some different interpretations of the evolving market and democratization.

You make a *good* point that there's been a substantial threshold crossed with high performance at low cost. I agree. In this, you're also suggesting, I think, that the revolution is over. Here I strongly disagree. In my view, the revolution continues as ever higher performance becomes available at the low end of cost.

To be clear, the revolution I'm thinking about is: more people generating more content at ever higher production value at easily accessible cost. Per Benjamin Franklin, the freedom of the press only accrues to those who own one. For a $60-100/yr. web hosting account, any of us can publish online (and try to connect with an audience).

Sadly, communication value and storytelling skill are somewhat degraded over the course of this continuing revolution. Also, the low-end markets have dramatically expanded, cannibalizing the hi-end markets to some degree.

Where does that leave today's working pros in business for themselves? Most need to have an eye to down-market companies expanding into their territory. Most clients don't care about video engineering superiority. If the project does what they want at a lower cost they're all for it.

You've misunderstood, I think, what I wrote about making money with a DSLR. I guess I didn't give enough context. When I have a paying project I rent a conventional camcorder - I'm done being an owner/operator, the gear changes too fast, and, I'm more of a producer who also sometimes shoots than a full-time shooter.

But, there are a bunch of personal and benefit projects in which I use a DSLR for video. And, I shoot a lot of stills!

And, especially, DSLR video continues to provide a path of learning for students I work with. They're the reason I picked up my first video-capable DSLR.

Not sure what your work is in particular, but I do think that none of us should be comfortable with our position standing on a mountaintop, because the tide's rising, there's an ocean of people learning to tell stories with whatever technology they can afford. The markets are changing. The revolution continues.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

In my view, the revolution continues as ever higher performance becomes available at the low end of cost.

What do you mean by "higher performance"? Resolution? DR? Data bitrate? What about that contributes to a continued "revolution"? Would you stretch that fully to say that we are still in the middle of a CG "revolution"? Would you say we're still in the middle of a revolution of "internet publishing" perhaps? Or desktop publishing? How about the Industrial Revolution? That still ongoing as well? All of these things still have developments going on, all bringing about "higher performance...at the low end of cost", so with your description, the answer would have to be "yes" would it not?

Sadly, communication value and storytelling skill are somewhat degraded over the course of this continuing revolution.

I disagree with this. Communication value (not sure what you mean specifically by that) and storytelling skills are not degraded at all, instead people without these skills are making content now. That's the nature of the beast. The ability for us to write amazing books hasn't degraded at all, but some people who envision themselves as authors who have neither the talent nor the skill have been (for a long time now) not stopped by any gatekeepers, and so there is more of a plethora of crap than in the past. But the solution is to reinstate the gatekeepers, and that is a Pandora's Box that will never be closed.

But nothing you have said is making a case for a recommendation to buy a $3500 5D Mark IV + media (at the very least) over anyone who already has any kind of large sensor DSLR-style hybrid camera already. Do you need 4K to teach students? Do you need DPAF to teach students? Do you need MotionJPEG with that 4K to teach students?

Again, this is a business, and as such, it needs to make business sense to justify a purchase. Do you shoot with a 5D Mark III and are you losing jobs because of it and/or are current clients asking for and willing to pay a premium for 4K content? Is a 5D Mark IV in this case really a better option than a FS5/7 or C300 Mark II? But if it's not a business, and someone has the money and wants a 5D IV, then sure, go nuts. However, it's not a good recommendation for someone, especially someone who is looking to "improve" the look of their work because, more often than not, their work is hamstrung by lighting, art design, composition, and editing far more than it is being hurt by the camera they use.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

What do you mean by "higher performance"? Resolution? DR? Data bitrate? What about that contributes to a continued "revolution"?

The revolution is social, cultural, and in business. More people are doing more work, at increasing value.

Communication value (not sure what you mean specifically by that) and storytelling skills are not degraded at all, instead people without these skills are making content now. That's the nature of the beast. The ability for us to write amazing books hasn't degraded at all, but some people who envision themselves as authors who have neither the talent nor the skill have been (for a long time now) not stopped by any gatekeepers, and so there is more of a plethora of crap than in the past. But the solution is to reinstate the gatekeepers, and that is a Pandora's Box that will never be closed.

Actually, I think we're agreeing in this. It's the *average* of storytelling that has degraded - as you say, there's a lot more crap out there.

But nothing you have said is making a case for a recommendation to buy a $3500 5D Mark IV + media (at the very least) over anyone who already has any kind of large sensor DSLR-style hybrid camera already. Do you need 4K to teach students? Do you need DPAF to teach students? Do you need MotionJPEG with that 4K to teach students?

Nope, not at all. I don't teach on DSLR. There are about 16 conventional camcorders in our program. But, with students buying T2i, T5i, 7D, 5Dm? and etc., not to mention this or that Sony, I got into it to understand their experience.

It's a pretty simple equation to describe DSLR video: best image for the money. Of course ergonomics and sound, and the lack of standard exposure monitoring tools can get in the way of good imagery, but, still, best image for the money. Period.

Again, this is a business, and as such, it needs to make business sense to justify a purchase. Do you shoot with a 5D Mark III and are you losing jobs because of it and/or are current clients asking for and willing to pay a premium for 4K content? Is a 5D Mark IV in this case really a better option than a FS5/7 or C300 Mark II? But if it's not a business, and someone has the money and wants a 5D IV, then sure, go nuts. However, it's not a good recommendation for someone, especially someone who is looking to "improve" the look of their work because, more often than not, their work is hamstrung by lighting, art design, composition, and editing far more than it is being hurt by the camera they use.

It's not *a* business. It's not one industry. It's many types of businesses, across a host of industries. That diversity is part of the revolution as well. A professional does have to keep their pencil sharp to work in the black, but for some it will continue to be DSLR video that pencils out best.

There definitely *are* quite a few people hamstrung by soft focus. Which Canon's DPAF/touchscreen AF solution is absolutly head and shoulders above most other methods. In my book that's a really big deal for large-sensor HD, not to mention 4K.

I myself don't much like the current Sony look, and I was brought up on Sony. We could argue about 8-bit vs. 10/12-bit, but, having done my share of video engineering and purchase by specs, I'm now more interested in camera codecs that look good *without* deep cc or grading. Workflow. Time is money. Or, in the case of most students, a good workflow means they can sleep at night! 10-bit looks good on paper, but I'll take good-looking 8-bit over icky 10-bit any day of the week.

Absolutely it is your right to piss all over DSLR video, and I have some reservations about it too. But, it is happening, it is a thing, and Canon's sensor/processing aesthetics, 4k, and DPAF/touchscreen themselves will be enough to interest many people in the 5Dm4 for video. In my opinion.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Do you shoot with a 5D Mark III and are you losing jobs because of it and/or are current clients asking for and willing to pay a premium for 4K content? Is a 5D Mark IV in this case really a better option than a FS5/7 or C300 Mark II?

For me, the price of an FSx or C300 isn't an option. Video shooting isn't my full time gig.

Regarding 4K, 4K itself is not the point. 4K allows a high res DSLR shoot clean video with the native optical antialiasing filter at a reasonable crop factor. In post, you can bring it down to HD or do a 2:1 reframe. It's a more appropriate solution than a low res DSLR, the soft digital filter of the 5D3, or a separate optical filter, like from Mosaic Engineering. It's the ideal solution for video plus stills.

Frankly, where 4K truly matters is 30 fps frame grabs. But that's really a photo use case (with short shutter), rather than for videographers.