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Old June 7th, 2017, 08:12 PM   #61
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
Did I say this is a "fact"? As a matter of fact, I phrased this as a "question" and not a statement at all. I even ended the questions with question marks.

"Is the C200 the only log capable camera on Earth to ever actually block log out of its HDMI? Who else does that?"

My question still stands. Does anybody know or heard of any log capable camera that blocks it's log gamma output over it's HDMI port? I know of none myself. Even Sony little, tiny cheap consumer RX cameras output SLOG over their micro HDMI ports.

It seems that Canon wants to lock you inside the camera and block your attempts at leaving their internal limitations with a high quality ProRes recording.....dirty-style.
I have not heard of a camera that blocks log output. But that's my point, if we don't know that your assertion is a fact, quoted by Canon, it means nothing, it doesn't mean Canon wants to "lock you inside the camera" until we know that's how the camera's HDMI output performs. Once they release the manual and or camera, then it may matter but in the big picture, it won't matter if they did, because I doubt they will change it if your assertion is true, unless nobody is buying the C200 because of that. It's like you are working yourself up over a game of "what if". Same as 8-bit XF-AVC in 2018. We heard some gossip that really means nothing since it didn't come from Canon. If your supposition is true, I agree, that would be dumb of Canon. Just one more caveat on buying a C200.
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Old June 7th, 2017, 09:14 PM   #62
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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But that's my point, if we don't know that your assertion is a fact, quoted by Canon, it means nothing, it doesn't mean Canon wants to "lock you inside the camera" until we know that's how the camera's HDMI output performs.
At 5:30 in this video, Alex from Canon talks about the HDMI not outputting LOG.

https://www.cinema5d.com/canon-c200-hands-on-interview/
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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:41 PM   #63
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Barry Goyette View Post
Alex from Canon talks about the HDMI not outputting LOG.
I heard there were "filmmakers" there helping at the Canon booth to field questions. I don't know if "Alex from Canon" is an actual Canon rep or one of those "filmmakers". He could have misspoke and meant Raw, not Log.

In order for there not to be a Log signal coming out of HDMI, Canon would have to be forcing a LUT on it on the outbound signal, for both Clog and Clog3. Frankly, it makes no sense for them to force that on a Clog1 or 3 signal.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 04:42 AM   #64
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Old June 8th, 2017, 09:06 AM   #65
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
I heard there were "filmmakers" there helping at the Canon booth to field questions. I don't know if "Alex from Canon" is an actual Canon rep or one of those "filmmakers". He could have misspoke and meant Raw, not Log.

In order for there not to be a Log signal coming out of HDMI, Canon would have to be forcing a LUT on it on the outbound signal, for both Clog and Clog3. Frankly, it makes no sense for them to force that on a Clog1 or 3 signal.
I don't know who Alex is...although I believe he's introduced as being from canon. There were a lot of people working in that booth from the engineering side that weren't wearing booth shirts, even a couple of the reps were in their own clothing. Alex seemed pretty specific about the fact that Log wasn't included over the HDMI. My thought about that would be that canon sees that as a monitoring port -- and I haven't looked, but they were talking about a PQ signal...which probably means that is designed to go out to an HDR TV or monitor...thus no LOG. Just guessing.

Edit: Alex Sax is a Pro Market Specialist for Canon USA.

As for "forcing a LUT" on the HDMI. The camera shoots what i believe they call a "cinema raw gamma" natively...so Clog gamma, Clog3 gamma, and any of the other "look" gammas in the would all largely be the same in terms of "forcing a LUT" as they are all numerical conversions from that larger space. This doesn't explain why "no log over HDMI". Again...Alex is the only source for this that I have seen. I wish this question had come up during the show. Tim Smith was pretty easy to corner, and he's the one who would have had the definitive answer.
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Last edited by Barry Goyette; June 8th, 2017 at 09:29 AM. Reason: additional info
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Old June 8th, 2017, 10:49 AM   #66
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

I guess the end result would be, does the HDMI force rec709. (6-7stops of DR)

Equally as bad, why does it force 8bit 4k? This camera is too ecpensive to force 8bit rec709 over HDMI.

"If" this really is the case today, this is something Canon will surly change once people start buying the C200. The outcry from customers to allow proper external ProRes recordings and avoid the internal camera CODECs will be huge. People will be screaming to be let out of the "cage" that Canon has them stuck in. It wont take long.

IBC will happen in the fall, just as Panasonic's amazingly spec'd EVA1 hits the streets. I certainly expect Sony to answer the EVA1 with their own conparably spec'd model. This will leave the C200 high and dry if they dont open the damn'd thing up.

How far will we all go to get "Canon colors" straight out of a camera anyway. With 10bit, you cant post correct to get great colors from most modern cameras.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 11:51 AM   #67
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Barry Goyette View Post
Edit: Alex Sax is a Pro Market Specialist for Canon USA.
Alex Sax is a Pro Market Rep for Canon (according to his Twitter profile), not a Specialist. The Specialist are the actual reps, all the ones I know have that title. A Rep could be just a person who shows up for random events who doesn't actually work for Canon specifically except as a freelance marketing person. I guarantee you he misspoke and meant raw.

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The camera shoots what i believe they call a "cinema raw gamma" natively...so Clog gamma, Clog3 gamma, and any of the other "look" gammas in the would all largely be the same in terms of "forcing a LUT" as they are all numerical conversions from that larger space.
That's really stretching the idea.The camera probably shoots Clog2 in the Cine Raw Lite format only because that's the only way the camera gets rated at 15 stops. Clog1 is around 12 and Clog3 is 13.5-ish. I assume that Clog2 is what gamma curve is applied to the raw signal. However, comparing the Clog1/3 gamma curve tweaks to forcing a LUT is really missing the point. It's all done at the point of signal origination (which is why buying a profile pack for any camera that does not ship with a native Log curve is flushing your money down the toilet).
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Old June 8th, 2017, 12:11 PM   #68
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
IBC will happen in the fall, just as Panasonic's amazingly spec'd EVA1 hits the streets.
Considering that Panasonic had a mockup at Cinegear and not an actual working camera, I wouldn't not be in the least surprised to not see the EVA1 hitting the streets until sometime Q1 2018.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 12:50 PM   #69
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
Alex Sax is a Pro Market Rep for Canon (according to his Twitter profile), not a Specialist. The Specialist are the actual reps, all the ones I know have that title. A Rep could be just a person who shows up for random events who doesn't actually work for Canon specifically except as a freelance marketing person. I guarantee you he misspoke and meant raw.



That's really stretching the idea.The camera probably shoots Clog2 in the Cine Raw Lite format only because that's the only way the camera gets rated at 15 stops. Clog1 is around 12 and Clog3 is 13.5-ish. I assume that Clog2 is what gamma curve is applied to the raw signal. However, comparing the Clog1/3 gamma curve tweaks to forcing a LUT is really missing the point. It's all done at the point of signal origination (which is why buying a profile pack for any camera that does not ship with a native Log curve is flushing your money down the toilet).
Whatever Gary. I'm sure all your assumptions (and your guarantee) are correct. FWIW, Alex's instagram, Facebook and Canon's website list him as a Pro Market Specialist.

No camera "shoots" in log. Log is a transform that is performed to the raw signal after debayering. Canon Raw light isn't shot in Clog2. It can be converted to Clog2, or Clog or Clog 3 with Canons Raw Development application, and most likely with it's plug-ins for Avid, FCPX, etc. In terms of processing, Canon converting the internal RAW signal to a log gamma versus one of the Rec.709 looks (or PQ if that done over HDMI) should be largely the same.

I love this new term "forcing the LUT" -- kinda like when the media started calling white Blue Collar voters "non-college educated whites". We used to call it Broadcast ready or rec.709 compliant.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 01:26 PM   #70
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Barry Goyette View Post
FWIW, Alex's instagram, Facebook and Canon's website list him as a Pro Market Specialist.
That's good enough for me then. I didn't look at all of his social media and wasn't able to find him on Canon's site.

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No camera "shoots" in log.
And I never said that.

Quote:
Log is a transform that is performed to the raw signal after debayering.
No, Log is a part of the gamma curved applied during the debayer process.

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Canon Raw light isn't shot in Clog2. It can be converted to Clog2, or Clog or Clog 3 with Canons Raw Development application.
No, Canon Raw is in Clog2. You cannot output raw of the C300 Mark II unless you have Clog2 as the setting. It won't let you otherwise. I was originally mistaken that Clog3 wasn't part of that, but I was incorrect, as it is. You have to have your gamma curve to output Clog2 or Clog3, otherwise the camera will not output a raw signal. I guarantee you the same is true for the C200 as well (only with Clog3).

Though it's odd that they are advertising 15-stops when Clog3 is not going to get you that.

Last edited by Gary Huff; June 8th, 2017 at 02:17 PM.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 02:40 PM   #71
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post

The camera probably shoots Clog2 in the Cine Raw Lite format....
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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
And I never said that.

No, Log is a part of the gamma curved applied during the debayer process.

No, Canon Raw is in Clog2. You cannot output raw of the C300 Mark II unless you have Clog2 as the setting. It won't let you otherwise...../ /.....I guarantee you the same is true for the C200 as well (only with Clog3).

From the Canon supplied brief I linked to earlier in this thread:

“Once a Canon RAW Movie is recorded, it then needs to be unpacked in one of two ways. The first and more traditional route would be utilizing an updated version of Canon’s RAW Development Software. At its core, this software allows for the unpacking, modification, and debayering of Cinema RAW Light files. Modification is the key phrase here, as we have the opportunity to modify the parameters by which our footage is debayered. EOS C200 captures its RAW information in a proprietary RAW Gamut and RAW Gamma. This data needs to be taken from their RAW spaces, and conformed into one of the many gamma curves or color spaces to begin the post production process.

“The footage from the EOS C200 can be conformed into a wide range of spaces, from Cinema Gamut down to BT.709, and from Canon Log 2 to Wide DR. The choice is yours and dependent on the amount of post production resources you’re planning to allocate. However, if you are shooting in the RAW format presumably you’re going to want to take full advantage of the information captured utilizing a combination of Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut. This Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut combination is the most ideal starting point for an HDR workflow, providing the full 15 stop dynamic range the sensor has to offer, as well as the widest range of encoded colors.”
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Old June 8th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #72
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

So the C200 Cinema Raw Lite workflow is a bit different than the original. It also illustrates my point about log gamma being part of the debayering process.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 03:42 PM   #73
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

Glad I could help you with that. :-)

Based on the workflows Canon published for the C300 mark II. The conversion to log gamma occurs at the end of the image processing chain, after debayering and conversion to 14 bit linear components. They are part of the same process but the gamma conversion happens at the end, after extraction, and amplification of the RGB components, and prior to compression. That's all I was saying, and regardless, no matter whether it's during, before of after, I would assume that conversion to any of the camera's available gamma's would be the same. In fact, converting from linear components to a linear gamma like Rec.709, should be easier.

But I won't guarantee anything. :-)
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Old June 8th, 2017, 10:35 PM   #74
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

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Based on the workflows Canon published for the C300 mark II. The conversion to log gamma occurs at the end of the image processing chain, after debayering and conversion to 14 bit linear components.
Oh really?

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While the C300 Mark II is recording either 4K or UHD on-board via the XF-AVC codec, it
simultaneously delivers an uncompressed 10-bit Log encoded RAW version of that selected
format via the 3G SDI output terminal labeled REC OUT. It also delivers the same signal on the
MON 3G SDI output terminal. That 4K RAW signal is prepared in an identical manner to the
RAW output of the EOS C500 camera. The four separate high-bit depth R, Gr, Gb, B 4:4:4:4
video components are read out in parallel from the image sensor at a high bit-depth and are
mapped to the 10-bit Canon Log2 OETF prior to multiplexing into the serial 3G SDI RAW output.
From here. So what's coming out of the 3G SDI-RAW output connection is already mapped to Clog2. Before debayering.

Perhaps this "Raw gamma" from the C200 is merely Clog2 without being called that, and part of the process of making the C200 not compete with the C300 Mark II is to ensure that you don't get the full Clog2 raw signal without being forced to convert it to Clog1/3 in Raw Development.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 08:34 AM   #75
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Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

From Sebastian Wober of Cinema 5D's hands on review and test of the C200...

"There is HDMI and SDI out and, contrary to some rumours out there, I can confirm that both of them output your Canon Log signal. You can also apply LUTs to individual outputs."

https://www.cinema5d.com/canon-c200-...e-raw-footage/
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