New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

"There is HDMI and SDI out and, contrary to some rumours out there, I can confirm that both of them output your Canon Log signal. You can also apply LUTs to individual outputs."

Thanks for the detective work, Dan. It made no sense to me at all that it wouldn't be possible.

[Barry Goyette]

Ha. I reached out to Alex Sax and he just got back to me a few minutes ago, and explained the confusion.

On the test cameras they had, the HDMI was locked to Rec.709, which is why he said what he said. He apologized for the inaccuracy.

[Paulo Teixeira]

Canon C200 Interview at Cine Gear Expo 2017

Canon C200 Camera Interview, Cine Gear 2017 - YouTube

[Dan Brockett]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Thanks for the detective work, Dan. It made no sense to me at all that it wouldn't be possible.

With our Internet brain trust here, I think we can figure out anything about these cameras. It just takes digging, cross referencing for consensus and like good old journalism teaching instructs us, always be skeptical of early reports on anything, especially anything that seems illogical or controversial, because more often then not, early reports are wrong.

[Cliff Totten]

Thank God Sebastian's review C200 firmware had log out. So it looks like maybe Canon has been testing different HDMI output options with different firmware? Interesting...I would speculate that Canon has been debating how much external recording that they want to allow on the C200.

Let's also hope that Canon doesn't lock down the HDMI output to 8bit only. I STRONGLY believe that C20 buyers be allowed to record 4k 10bit CLog outside this camera for this price. If they allow that, it will compensate for the C200's weak internal h.264 CODEC that it has and make if far more usable. This will also make it a bit more competitive against Panasonic's EXTREMELY feature stacked EVA1.

Crossing my fingers!

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Let's also hope that Canon doesn't lock down the HDMI output to 8bit only.

It will be 8-bit only. What other cameras do you know about that allow 8-bit internal recording while also outputting 10-bit externally? That's not how Canon does things.

[Cliff Totten]

lol,....I guess you have a point!

Well,...the $2000 GH5 has no problem outputting 10bit. The Sony FS5 records 10bit HD and 8bit 4k....but!,...at least it outputs 12bit raw sensor data to allow external 10bit conversion to ProRes. The Panasonic EVA1 has everything, 10bit internal 400Mbp/s, 5.7K raw output, dual ISO...plus the kitchen sink for "under $8000"!!!!!

I guess you are right. This C200 will be an 8bit camera for anything longer than 15min recordings. It was on my radar for a December purchase but I see no reason not to swing over to the EVA1 instead. IBC will likely bring Sony's new competition out too. I strongly suspect that Sony will work hard to compete with the EVA1. (Something Canon seems to be NOT willing to do)

It's going to be extremely hard to say "no" to the EVA 1. They have thoroughly overloaded the damn thing up with soooo many features. How in the hell can anybody say "nah,...it's not worth it". Haha...it's RIDICULOUSLY over-packed with features..


CT

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Well,...the $2000 GH5 has no problem outputting 10bit.

When it records 10-bit internally. You can't record 4Kp60 internally if you're recording out to an Atomos Shogun/Ninja Inferno.

The Sony FS5 records 10bit HD and 8bit 4k

Because it records 10-bit HD and 8-bit 4K internally.

....but!,...at least it outputs 12bit raw sensor data to allow external 10bit conversion to ProRes.

Which is what the C200 does as well, only internally to a CFast card.

The Panasonic EVA1 has everything, 10bit internal 400Mbp/s, 5.7K raw output, dual ISO...plus the kitchen sink for "under $8000"!!!!!

$7999. Plus, you know that camera at Cine Gear was just a mockup, right? While the specs look good, it could be 1st Quarter 2018 before anyone gets their hands on it.

It's going to be extremely hard to say "no" to the EVA 1. They have thoroughly overloaded the damn thing up with soooo many features. How in the hell can anybody say "nah,...it's not worth it". Haha...it's RIDICULOUSLY over-packed with features..

At this point I don't see how it doesn't undercut the Varicam LT (besides a 2K 12-bit 444 mode that it has like the C300 Mark II), so I would wait with baited breath. Just the fact it uses bone fide Vlog and not Vlog L made me do a spit take.

[Dan Brockett]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

It's going to be extremely hard to say "no" to the EVA 1. They have thoroughly overloaded the damn thing up with soooo many features. How in the hell can anybody say "nah,...it's not worth it". Haha...it's RIDICULOUSLY over-packed with features..


CT

I just ordered the C200. But I am also buying an EVA1 and and will live with both for a month of shooting. Loser gets sold, winner stays on. They both have features that I really want. Wish there was a camera that had the best of both.

[Stewart Hemley]

There just might be one or two people interested in your conclusion, Dan!

[Sina Basy]

Typical Canon "mushy" soft sensor readout. When will Canon finally catch up to everybody's else's oversampling techniques?

[Cliff Totten]

BINGO! You hit the nail right on the head.

I'm becoming a big fan of oversampling these days. A 1:1 readout from an RGGB Bayer pattern sensor is the rock bottom MINIMUM way to create a "4k" image. Hell, your green channel, the HIGHEST resolution channel you have, is literally only 1/2 4k resolution.

Folks,....let that sink in. The highest resolution channel is literally nowhere near 4k resolution. Even worse, the red and blue channels are only 1/4 4k resolution!! THIS SUCKS!

When Sony does a 6k image scan, they are reading out a green channel that is 100% full raster 4k. And, they are supplementing that image with a 1/2 4k resolution red and blue channels.It's still not a full raster RGB image but at teh very least, a 6k oversample will deliver 1 full raster green channel as the foundation of your image for de-Bayering.

This is why the EVA-1 (5.7k readout) will likely EASILY display much more detail than the C200.

We'll see but the EVA-1 has all the numbers on it's side.

CT

[Steve Burkett]

I've been on some forums where a few have argued tirelessly that a 10 bit 4:2:2 codec is unnecessary when you have RAW internal as a feature of this camera. Boy, I'd love to live in their World where jobs are simply divided between those demanding a crappy but low bitrate of 100mbps for 25p or those wanting a higher quality where RAW is an easy answer.

I personally think Canon's inclusion of RAW recording to be very innovative and ground breaking, but despair that it comes at the cost of a robust 10 bit 4:2:2 codec internal for jobs where RAW and 8 bit low bitrate are not the obvious choices. It maybe this omission will be addressed in future updates and I'm patient enough to sit and see if Canon either fix this or if the EVA1 delivers on some of its features.

I think if you're one of those people who feel the C200 is a great choice of camera, go for it. If you're somewhat conflicted, then hold off and wait until next year when both the C200 and the EVA1 have had a chance to show what each are capable of.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

Imaybe this omission will be addressed in future updates and I'm patient enough to sit and see if Canon either fix this or if the EVA1 delivers on some of its features.

It will be fixed with a C300 Mark II/C400, whatever they call the next iteration of that camera. There is no reason to ever give you 10-bit 4:2:2 in the C200, it would immediately kill the C300 Mark II, and that's not good business.

[Steve Burkett]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

There is no reason to ever give you 10-bit 4:2:2 in the C200, it would immediately kill the C300 Mark II, and that's not good business.

Oh I think there's plenty of reasons to give us 10 bit 4:2:2 in the C200 - happy customers, a superior product that has a wider range of codes to support a variety of shooting needs, better competition with similar priced cameras - e.g the FS7 and EVA1. Alas the one good reason for not delivering such a product - the demands of a Business that has a higher priced model that need protecting takes precedence.