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Old September 19th, 2017, 09:13 AM   #31
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

I had bought into the Sony prosumer product line since the Hi8 VX3. Replacing each time with the latest including he NX5U and the FDR-AX1 which I still have both. That segment was in the $4000 range. For all these they always had a full pro version ( example the NX5U pro had the AX200 prosumer. the FDR-AX1 the PXW-Z100 ) Usual difference was SDI interface and timecode and in the case of the PXW-Z100 10bit output at a very high data rate. These were all 3 ring cameras now Sony have the new NX5R that I had hoped would have UHD60P as really the only model in the class for Sony. I was looking for a camera to replace my NX5U and FDR-AX1 and the closest is the Panasonic HC-X1/UX180.

I am loving the GH5 with its WiFi app that I can control it from my tablet.
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Old September 19th, 2017, 06:01 PM   #32
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

AX100 update …. It’s been a LONG time coming!
[I know this is VERY LONG but I couldn’t take it any more!]
[very frustrated, ready for a new cam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
No UHD 60P. Fail.
Like they say, you can get a 1,000 “at-a-boys” but one “aw shit” wipes them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
Agree. I think Sony now is the only manufacturer without a 50/60P UHD camera in this class of camcorders ....
*sigh* ain’t that the truth. What will that do to the resale value of a used 30p cam that was just bought?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Williams View Post
Coming from an AX100 I'm ready for an upgrade. I was sold on the XF400 until this announcement. No 60p is very disappointing ....
NX80 Pros
Full sensor readout, OLED Touchscreen, HLG, $700 less than XF 400, can use my existing batteries
I really wanted the X70 but didn’t want to deal with the, umm ..., “features”, so got the AX100 as a placeholder and have been really satisfied with it. No problems. Then got the AX53 and, WoW, what a cool cam with that BOSS system. The two cut really well together but still waiting for either the X70 or AX100 replacement. The AX700 at first glance looked like my go-to cam replacement where I’d use the JuicedLink low-noise pre with it’s XLR connectors and controls.

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Originally Posted by Kyle Root View Post
I have to say I really prefer the control layout on the body of the Sony over the Canon.
Yes! Yes! And/or over a bridge DSLR.

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
I'd bet a thousand bucks that Sony engineers would love to do 60p and/or 10bit on a $2500 camera but they are getting shot down by higher decision makers.

The only way Sony would do 60p and/or 10bit would be if an exec very high up in Sony would step in and demand it.

Look,...Panasonic does 60p, 10bit with no heat problems...probably buying Sony sensor and 6k scaling algorithms. Their managers happily pay for those chips and turn those switches on while Sony is against doing it.
Yes, *and shaking my head*, so what’s management thinking? That previous loyal Sony customers will stay within the fold? Hey, “money talks” and customers walk. What ever happened to the upgrade path? The customer that starts out with their first cam then graduates to better and more expensive cams? If the cam isn’t competitive then “the upgrade path” will have a missing link. Then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Watson View Post
"No 60p for you!"
Whether it's technical issues or feature rationing, doesn't matter really. If the camera doesn't do what you need, you don't buy it.
For me, I can wait. On to other stuff at the moment (just bought a couple AKG C414 microphones) and my current AX100 and AX53 will do me fine until spring. It would have been nice, though, to pick up one of the new cams. Come spring, maybe the Yi 4K+ … ? Hey, I know it’s cheap but it’s got 60p AND I can get it wet! So who knows? (he, he)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
This leaves the problematic issue of why Canon and Panasonic ARE releasing 1" class 4K60p "prosumer" cameras, and Sony is dropping the ball... if it's because of (as it appears) technical reasons (the well known and documented overheating issue), someone has some 'splaining to do, and more importantly catching up to do! You can't argue it's not technically possible, when the other guys are doing it...!
Amen! Good point. I'm sure the Sony engineers knew full well, or pretty much so, what the heat generation from the sensors and other components were when they came up with the AX100 body. Tooling is costly so they wanted a body that would last a few generations, or iterations, and I’m sure they had a safety factor included in the body design.

It is possible, though, that the new features where all the processing would obviously generate heat overtook the heat balance equation but my guess still is, it’s what many have surmised, that management is trying to protect the higher-end models. Ironically, a decision like that may be just shooting themselves in the foot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
If the market EXPECTS a feature, it's marketing suicide to simply ignore the demand, as the $$$$ can and WILL go elsewhere, relatively quickly, in ample evidence right here on this thread!!
According to their PR stuff, their two [edit: three] main target audiences seem to be wedding, church, and news people and I can see that. After the initial sales (IF that works out as planned), and sales start to fall off, THEN they might add 60p - - for a couple hundred dollars - - to boost sales again. But they better be careful because the technology landscape is changing and if they wait the potential buyers of today who went elsewhere aren’t going to come back. What’s the latest catch phrase? Anytime soon?

Note: By having 60p as a PAID upgrade and going direct instead of through distribution channels it will cut out the retailers so more profit for Sony’s bottom line.

Bottom line (and it's all about the bottom line): Not including 60p when everybody else has it may be a major management decision mistake.
[sorry for the long post but I just couldn't take it any more]
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Old September 21st, 2017, 07:14 AM   #33
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

Since no one mentioned it, I'd thought I'd point out that when the 4K upgrade became available for purchase for the x70 it was only 60Mbps whereas their own and other consumer cameras were already doing 100Mbps. Later the 4K feature had an update which added 100Mbps.

So it doesn't surprise me in the least that the z90 doesn't include 4k 60p. I'm not entirely certain it's just a marketing decision just as I'm not sure originally offering only 4K 60Mbps was a marketing decision. I don't think companies make marketing decisions that put themselves at a market disadvantage. If Sony held up 4k 100Mbps for a time, it may be a similar hurdle to deliver 4k 60p at 150Mbps as well (being able to deliver the data rate is certainly a factor). In fact these look like the same decision in that they can't (yet?) deliver the data rate given the technology they're using or standards they're holding themselves to.

I'm inclined to believe that Sony is taking a different approach which may present them additional hurdles on encoder quality since this is now a twice repeated pattern.

When I make a camera purchase decision I look at the whole package because any given camera can beat any other given camera with a given feature.

For me, camera size (small) is very important. Perhaps being able to shoot 1080 at 120fps continuous is more important than 4k 60p is more important to some. Perhaps the new autofocus features are much more mission critical as well. Maybe 10 bit 4:2:2 HD internal recording is more important.

While there are other cameras that have 4k 60p, depending on the camera, they each seem to lack something the z90 has. It does not mean the z90 is "better" but it does mean there may be other feature advantages the z90 has that may rank higher for some.
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Old September 21st, 2017, 09:35 PM   #34
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

Form me, the NXCAM NX-80 offers something way better than its more expensive XDCAM brother.....mp4 wrapper!

I dont know about anybody else but I feel the .mp4 container is WAY better than .mxf. Mp4 plays back soooo much smoother for me. It plays back perfectly on almost any media player and device. Meanwhile, .mxf seems to unpack slower and many players struggle with it. The 100mbp/s h.264 CODEC settings are virtually identical with the exception of fixed GOP structure vs variable GOP structure. As far as quality goes, they appear 100% identicle.

Anyhoo....im ready to sell my NX-70 just for the sole benefit of dropping .mxf and gaining .mp4 instead! I dont care about 1080 SDI as I only shoot UHD today.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 09:02 PM   #35
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

I've really enjoyed my X70, bought in Dec. 2014 and upgraded to 4K. Compared to the X70 the Z90 is a pretty nice upgrade, even though it's basically just bringing the existing better Sony tech to the X70:

--a newer, better, cleaner sensor that should be a bit better in low light/higher gain
--SLog and HDR - I've been approximating flatter settings with Picture Profiles
--a more responsive and adjustable auto focus
--a true lanc port that doesn't require an adapter cable
--120fps instead of 60fps in HD, and limited bursts of even higher HD frame rates

There may more minor things that I've omitted. I find the Image Stabilization on the X70 pretty average, so I hope that is better as well. But, these are true improvements to the X70, things that many X70 users have long wished for. There was a time when I'd have jumped at this @ $2800.

But, with the Canon XF400 having 60fps in 4K, probably better image stabilization than either Sony, and a longer, wider optical zoom for only $200 more, I'd definitely look at it. My previous camera was a Canon XF100, bought in 2011. It was also $3000 and I enjoyed the extensive picture customization it offered and its 422 8-bit HD. The XF400 looks to me like an upgrade to the XA series hardware, not the XF, so I hope it would retain the deep customization of the XF series.

I also like the features of the Panasonic HC-X1 @ $3200, especially its longer zoom. But that lens also makes it bigger and heavier than I would probably be interested in.
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 07:47 AM   #36
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

I'm wondering why people value 4k 60p over other features. I guess it depends what kind of work you do.
At the moment it looks like the Canon XF405 shoots 1080 at 35mbps 4:2:0 8bit whereas the Sony Z90 is 50mbps 4:2:2 10bit. That's far more important to me in day to day work. Having S-Log adds further value if you want to push a grade around.

While I can't be sure how Canon encodes but my understanding is that Sony is doing a 2 bass VBR to push quality but that may well be the hurdle they face when pushing data rate or frame rates higher in normal shooting. The 2 pass is obviously a very short interval. Maybe Canon does this too but I haven't heard such.
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 08:02 AM   #37
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

The value for me in UHD60P is reframing in a 1920x 1080 project. I like the smooth motion of 60P ( 59.94fps ) and most of the time the camera is fixed. So in post I can emulate a multicam shoot from one camera. Of course I would like 4:2:2 10bit as well and in fact is also possible using an external recorder like the Atomos Inferno if the camera will output this stream. In my case the GH5 will do this. Having a camera that could operate in different modes would be the advantage.
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