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Old September 15th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #1
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3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

Sony has announced three new 4K camcorders:

Sony Unveils First Camcorders with Phase-detection AF at DV Info Net
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Old September 15th, 2017, 10:52 AM   #2
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

No UHD 60P. Fail.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 12:01 PM   #3
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

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Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
No UHD 60P. Fail.
Agree. I think Sony now is the only manufacturer without a 50/60P UHD camera in this class of camcorders with Canon and Panasonic having products in the class/price range. Pity since Sony was the first with the FDR-AX1 ( which I have and have been waiting for a nice upgrade ) and the PXW-Z100. They do not even have 50/60P UHD on the FS5. Not sure what their thinking is on this topic as it is clearly left off deliberately on all their lower priced models for camcorders and still cameras. I gave up waiting and bought the GH5 !!!
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Old September 15th, 2017, 01:12 PM   #4
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

But, I don't think the Canon and Panasonic competition have 422 10-bit in any mode and don't have a Log option.

So it depends on what one's needs and priorities are.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 01:49 PM   #5
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

Yup, I'm moving my recommendations to Canon and Panasonic now.

I bet the next A7S/R III will also be limited to 30p. They're now standing to lose a lot of market share.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 01:54 PM   #6
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

Adding this vid to the press release (link in first post).

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Old September 15th, 2017, 02:53 PM   #7
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

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Originally Posted by David Dixon View Post
But, I don't think the Canon and Panasonic competition have 422 10-bit in any mode and don't have a Log option.

So it depends on what one's needs and priorities are.
Yes I understand that. The X90 is only 4:2:2 10 bit in HD but for UHD it is the same as all the others 4:2:0 8 bit. So if the focus is UHD it is at a disadvantage. I think the Canon XF405 has 4:2:2 10 bit from the SDI or HDMI outputs though.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 05:10 PM   #8
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

No surprises with this latest from Sony. It was just the other day Sony recovered from a very serious life-threatening lack of profitability situation. They recovered due to looking hard at the various business bottom lines. They made it quite clear that cameras and camcorders would not receive serious R&D funding unless there was a compelling business case to do so. Clearly they have not been able to generate a compelling business case and that's hardly surprising to me.

Regarding cameras and camcorders they are seemingly in milk mode (other than higher priced full frame models). Take existing components off the shelf, tweak things here and there, no R&D, give it a new name, some but not a lot of promo and get what they can.

Panasonic, and now perhaps Canon, is where the action is.

Forget Sony; when it comes to cameras and camcorders they are elsewhere, like yesterday, and rightfully so in my opinion. Gone are the glory days of the EX1 and the NEX-7.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 05:11 PM   #9
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

There are two things Sony guards with their life; 4k 60p and 4k 10bit. They are deathly affraid to put it on any camera below the FS7.

Ridiculas....
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Old September 15th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #10
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

Coming from an AX100 I'm ready for an upgrade. I was sold on the XF400 until this announcement. No 60p is very disappointing but then i remembered my lack luster experience with the Canon XF300 & HF G30. They weren't horrible, but i wasn't blown away either. I"ve yet to find a YouTube video on the XF series that will change my opinion on this. You can throw the XC10 in with this assessment too.

The early footage from the XF400 has me a little worried that this trend will continue. It's not even on par with the AX100. So it's looking like the NX80 will win this battle for me and i'll just have to deal with the lack of 60p. I know I can get a GH5 but i prefer the ergonomics of a camcorder for run & gun plus it's still not a match for my NX1 (until the firmware upgrade at least).

XF400 Pros
Dual Pixel AF, 60p, 15X Zoom, Hardware ND Filter switch, Max Bit Rate 150 & upcoming codec upgrade, 5 Axis OIS

NX80 Pros
Full sensor readout, OLED Touchscreen, HLG, $700 less than XF 400, can use my existing batteries

On paper the XF400 wins so I hope the footage stands up, but he full sensor readout of the Sony and Canon's history of soft unflattering footage has me leaning heavily toward the NX80. I'm not trying to spend a lot of time in my NLE editing I need great footage right out the camera.

What good is 4K/60p if the image is subpar?
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Old September 15th, 2017, 08:07 PM   #11
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

I have an XA20 and a CX900 right now.

I have to say I really prefer the control layout on the body of the Sony over the Canon.

So just based on that, I'll probably go with the new Sony's. For what I do, I don't need 60p in 4K. At least I can't see why I would need it....
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Old September 16th, 2017, 09:26 PM   #12
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

^That is setting up a dangerous trend, my friend. Most broadcast IPTV based 4K right now that isn't live is 4K 30p. (Like the Stingray 4K channels) We may be growing up in a generation that won't know what true 60hz content is if this dangerous trend continues. Bravo to Canon and Panasonic for at least trying.
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Old September 17th, 2017, 02:15 PM   #13
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

Sony finally updated the AX100 (not sure what happened to AX200-600!? Maybe someone at Sony thinks "7" is their lucky #?), adding a few features, but most importantly going to a current generation sensor (after skipping several versions that appeared in other cameras). Not going to be running out to get one right away (I'm happy with a couple RX10M2/M3s for now!), but should be a good upgrade for the focus features and newer gen 1" class sensor.


Speculation on why 30p - Sony has always struggled with heat issues, going from 30 to 60p might add just enough to the heat generation to cause problems... if that's the case, not much can be done until they get some engineers to beat that bugger!

Other possible reasons... 60p requires faster memory cards, and Sony has been bitten in the backside by all the fake/counterfeit cards out there that cause the camera to malfunction, customers blame the camera instead of the cheap a** cards they bought. I've seen some speculation that marginal memory cards can add to the heat issues as well.... again, camera gets blamed, cheap a** memory gets a pass...

Here's a crazy possibility... IF Sony sees these cameras (and the RX10's) not selling because of the lack of 60p, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they could release (and dammit, they SHOULD, if the hardware can handle it) a firmware update as they have with the RX's and earlier AX that would magically enable 60p with some specific crazy fast memory cards (and of course ONLY those cards) - you want 60p, you have to buy the expensive memory cards (like that's really such a hardship on a $2K camera!?!).


I know we all would like to so 60p become the standard (my low end 4K TV's only do 30hz), but sometimes technology has limits that we don't see on our side of the fence. Of course there have been some challenges shooting 30p, but once you get a handle on lower shutter speeds, it's not really that bad on the shooting side of the game, and the output looks phenomenal, plus these sensors also produce 1080/60p that will look pretty good on a 4K screen. Most people would not be able to spot the difference between HD and 4K, and would consider the detail of the HD to be sufficient in many cases. There is a difference in quality of "HD", and if the HD you're shooting is very sharp and clear due to everything else the camera is capable of, it will "look" much like 4K.
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Old September 17th, 2017, 03:53 PM   #14
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

I suspect that the lack of 60p4k is not a technical problem for Sony. I think its way more of a "political" problem inside Sony.

Look,....Sony easily has the technology and processing know-how to do 60p and 10bit on any camera it "wants" to. However, they lack the "will" to do it. I strongly suspect that its the Sony Pro marketing managers that are protesting any "consumer" level camera to step onto their 10bit and/or 60p turf.

I'd bet a thousand bucks that Sony engineers would love to do 60p and/or 10bit on a $2500 camera but they are getting shot down by higher decision makers.

The only way Sony would do 60p and/or 10bit would be if an exec very high up in Sony would step in and demand it.

Look,...Panasonic does 60p, 10bit with no heat problems...probably buying Sony sensor and 6k scaling algorithms. Their managers happily pay for those chips and turn those switches on while Sony is against doing it.

Its politics, not technical problems.
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Old September 17th, 2017, 07:43 PM   #15
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Re: 3 new Sony 4K palm camcorders

"No 60p for you!"
Whether it's technical issues or feature rationing, doesn't matter really. If the camera doesn't do what you need, you don't buy it. I'm leaning towards technical issues on this one, based on the fact that my little FDR-X3000 DOES overheat, and shut down. Goes over 120 deg. Also, folks say they can see image degradation on the FDR-AX100 when shooting 120fps vs normal 30fps. So, the bits per pixel ratio drops in HFR mode and why is that? Chipset can't read out the full sensor fast enough? Heat management and the data pipeline are limiting factors in other cameras, why wouldn't they be with the newest little handycams? On the flipside, yes, I'd agree that Sony has made design choices to either distinguish between the camera classes or to provide an additional revenue stream, such as when they totally rework the friggin' hot shoe or remote/LANC interface, or go to a totally different battery pack for no apparent reason. Want 4K 60p? Scrape together $12K and get a FS7.

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