18 October - New Camera from Sony.

[Cliff Totten]

I can certainly appreciate your argument and I do agree with allot of it. However, look at this simple test between the A6300's 6k readout vs. the FS5's 1:1 readout. To me, the difference is truely striking. For me, it's not even close. No sharpening to either one. (allot of people confuse "sharpening" with actual "detail". You could have a very "sharp" image with relatively low amount of actual "detail". Sharpening is just micro contrast and pixel halos. The A6300 actually captures true "detail". I believe Sony agrees with me as they are pushing 1.5x , 1.7x and full 2x (6k) readout technology hard right now. They are now marketing it as a big "plus" in current Alpha models.Panasonic is also heavily pushing the advantages of oversampling with it's 5.7k EVA-1 too.

You are right about pixel pitch. It's certainly expected that the FS5's larger photosites and larger pixel wells would produce a higher signal to noise ratio over the A6300. But the A6300 proved us wrong in that category too. I can only guess that the A6300 deBayers in 6k and noise reduces in 6k "before" it scales down to 4k? This could explain they greatly improved 4k noise performance output over the FS5?

The A6300 is also a much newer manufacturing generation over the FS5's older FS700 sensor. Without checking, I'm thinking it's BSI stacked model?

Look at how much more detail the GH5 has over the GH4. To me that is also a big leap in resolving power and noise performance. The GH4 uses 1:1 sampling while the GH5 uses 5k oversample engine...[cough, cough, sensor purchased from Sony, cough....cough]

What do you think? This is my simple backyard test. Both captured in 4:2:2 ProRes 8 bit.Both cameras have the exact same lens and picture profile set to "off". The only thing that is a little different was the white balance on both.

SONY FS5 vs. A6300 - "IMAGE SENSOR" Test. - YouTube

[Cary Knoop]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

What do you think? This is my simple backyard test. Both captured in 4:2:2 ProRes 8 bit.Both cameras have the exact same lens and picture profile set to "off". The only thing that is a little different was the white balance on both.

Left has a far better dynamic range. If you compress the blacks/shadows on the left similar to the right and increase local contrast (edge "enhancement") you get a similar sharpness but with a better color rendition than the right picture.

Indicative is the little bag, full of edge "enhancement" on the right!

[Cliff Totten]

These are both "no profile" camera settings. A good test, that I didnt do, would have been SLOG on both. But yeah, the right has lighter shadows in these two limited dynamic range rec709-ish type (non) profiles.

It's important to remember that we can talk "image processing" all day long but the bottom line fact is that one camera is sampling literally TWICE the number of pixels than the other.

Which low light do you like better?

CT

[Cary Knoop]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

the bottom line fact is that one camera is sampling literally TWICE the number of pixels than the other.

Pixel count is not the same as resolution, take a look at this:

Resolution Demo

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

It's funny,...All these Sony 1 inch cameras over the last few years have all had what I think are harsh highlight handling. (Many other people on forums have complained of the same thing)
CT

Cliff I don't really see this supposedly harsh highlight handling people accuse the Sony 1" sensors of.

Way back in 2014 I uploaded a test video when the X70 first came out with the settings we used and no problems at all with the highlights. Since then we have used these settings in the Z150 and again have had very respectable results for clients out of the these second generation sensors. The original test clip needs to be downloaded to view but I suggest if you do do that throw it on the timeline of an NLE and observe the levels and where they sit and how the highlights behave. Many have commented on the results of these settings and have ended up using them pretty successfully.

One video I know off using the settings I used in the test clip was a corporate production uploaded to Vimeo by a French producer. I don't really see any major issues within his production either regarding major highlight handling issues. All shot on the X70. Valéry Bellengier's clip can be seen here. Sure he is pushing the clipper in many of the difficult shots but then only at the cost of correct expose or the main subject matter.

Am I the only one not seeing highlight issues except on the absolute extremes of exposure in the non essential parts of the scenes where extreme dynamic range is evident? I don't think so. He has got a pretty respectable production out of the little X70. For what theses little cams can deliver for the $$$s is outstanding to what we could deliver just a few years back. Sure I can get better highlight handling out of the FS7 but not straight out the box in 709 mode. It took a fair bit of massaging color and highlight handling manipulation to get the max out of that camera. There are still times where it can struggle in 709 mode believe me.

STCN - Opération de maintenance en sucrerie on Vimeo

My original test clip can be downloaded from the link below along with all the settings used, This test clip was purposely shot at a boating marina on an extremely harsh high contrast sunnny day specifically to test our settings. I would be more than happy to hear comments regarding the highlight handling from anyone who has the time to download the clip. If anyone has any suggestions on how to improve the X70s and 150s I'm all ears :)) The settings are at the head of the clip.

https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/t9yiwl

Happy shooting.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

[Noa Put]

Cliff I don't really see this supposedly harsh highlight handling people accuse the Sony 1" sensors of.

I also don't see that on my ax100, it handles harsh highlights pretty well.

[Ron Evans]

I don't see a problem with my AX100 either.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Cary Knoop

Pixel count is not the same as resolution, take a look at this:

Resolution Demo

That's actually a really cool presentation this guy did. After seeing his tests, and going back to looking at my own 1:1 vs 6k readout resolution and sensor noise tests,...I dont think I see any difference between these two cameras anymore like I once did!.

By the way,...the left and right cameras were switched on the night scene. Which one do you think is the 6k readout and which one was the 1:1. Can you see any noise difference?

CT ;-)

SONY FS5 vs. A6300 - "IMAGE SENSOR" Test. - YouTube

[Dylan Couper]

So... no new camera announcement?

[Steven Davis]

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

So......back to the topic....

Was this new camera announcement a lost leader? A total bust??? It is past 6:00PM in NY. I searched and can't find anything but the rumors leading up to today.

Steve

Yeah, I just want to know if it's time to sell the house and get it.

[Cliff Totten]

Sony has an official press event on Wednesday, 10AM, EST. (not a rumor but fact)

Sony A7S-III or A9S?

Whichever it is, it better have a minimum of 4k 30p output over HDMI. Internal recording would be asking allot of Sony....and 4k 60p?, I doubt Sony has the marketing guts to do it.

[Steven Digges]

No need to sell the house. The camera they did announce has its place but its not for most of us on this board. I work with that series (and others) on my AV shows. We use studio configurations for live shows to record and project i-mag. An engineer runs CCUs to paint and switches so they all match. The lack of true 4k on an expensive camera like that does not surprise me. There is a whole world of work out there that is always years behind caring about catching up with the latest in resolutions and codecs. Yet it is still a very professional world were operators and engineers work with gear that costs as much as a house.

Maybe my work with that gear is why you never hear me complaining about what 5 grand or less cameras don't have. All of the amazing things we can get at an affordable price for my smaller productions blows my mind. Bang for the buck is incredible these days. I have to focus on ROI and not worry about what new features will be released a year after a new investment is made. It is about clients needs for me. I was cured of gear lust a long time ago. Of course, maybe I feel this way because I learned to shoot with $30,000.00 Beta cams on my shoulder. I did not own one, most of us operators didn't back then. The technology curve that makes the gear we can own today so incredible is also what makes it affordable.

Has anyone of you ever had a client say "are you shooting in 4k 30p or 60P?" If you have clients that care about that then I suspect your not shooting with an A7S, A9 or FS5....just sayin....

Kind Regards,

Steve

[Cliff Totten]

Yeah,..its funny. None of my paying corporate clients have ever even asked me for 4k. Let alone 4k, 10bit 60p! (I shoot, edit and master everything 4k anyway and store it that way)

I'm actually hoping for Sony 10bit 4k for my "vacation" videos. I have Yosemite and Glacier National Park on my bucket list for next spring and summer. I shot Yellowstone this year on my GH5 rig with 10bit ProRes in V-log and I was absolutely blown away by that footage.

So yeah, for me it's not about getting paid for 10bit 4k, it's about the joy of shooting epic shots and color grading them for personal use. I purchased a GH5 and 3 Leica lenses for that one single vacation and will use it again next year if Sony doesn't answer the GH5 challenge.

If Sony "does" answer the GH5, I'll gladly and very quickly switch to them. (I still have my A7S-II and several Sony lenses.)

CT