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-   -   Toshiba said to be losing $200 on each HD-DVD player sold (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/70090-toshiba-said-losing-200-each-hd-dvd-player-sold.html)

Joe Carney July 14th, 2006 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
Well, I don't have any specific links... However, just based on what I've seen at Sony's own closed-door demos (been to three this year so far) and from what I know from the technical/developer side of things and what's been released on the net, we have the following...

Audio output from the PS3 will be via Optical and analag stereo pair. The HDMI module will allow for HDMI 8 channel audio as well, in the form of PCM and Dolby Digital.

Audio output from the BDP-S1 will have discrete linear PCM from the HDMI, standard PCM, DD and DTS. There are also individual audio connectors for each of the 8 audio channels in addition to optical, coaxial and stereo connectors.

The PS3's BluRay playback is software based... How that translates into what we get remains to be seen. Could be very good, could be second best or it could just plain suck. I've had Sony reps tell me that the playback quality is not as good as the BDP-S1 and the playback software has limited color processing abilities and is not as adept at some of the deinterlacing and motion functions. They also dodged the question about direct 24p output, but I think it's because they didn't know the answer. Some indications point to the PS3 not supporting 1080p or 720p output at 24fps, but rather only at 60Hz. So for those with newer 72 and 120 Hz displays with native 1080p24 input, the PS3 won't be able to accommodate and the TV will have to attempt to properly remove the duplicate frames to eliminate motion judder.

First and foremost, the PS3 is a game system. The fact that it plays BD Video is an added feature/bonus as are several of the other media-centric features. I've had two different individuals from Sony on two separate occasions compare the BD Video playback of the PS3 to DVD playback on the PS2 vs. their other stand-alone DVD players of the time. In other words, it's going to be the "cheap" solution. ...But I'm still willing to bet that PS3 BD Video output is still better than what you'd get from that new Samsung BDV-P1000 turd.


Public statements they've maid at EC3 have contradicted that. Their belief in the abilty of the Cell chips they jointly developed with IBM indicate they feel the PS3 can process HD video in excellent quality, including 7.1 surround.. without compromises. They view the PS3 as much more than a game system.
Maybe with the issues that have come up with trying to develop HD games for the PS3 have toned down the rhetoric.
Interesting info from Sony, only time will tell what they actually deliver.

Jeff Kilgroe July 15th, 2006 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kang
Jeff,

Actually, Fry's was selling Sony Vaio desktops with bluray burners.

I posted a message on a different thread here.

Did they actually have them in stock? They're still on pre-order everywhere I've been or looked online. But they could be here now... Availability is supposed to be "any day now" as the drives are shipping.

Jeff Kilgroe July 15th, 2006 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Carney
Public statements they've maid at EC3 have contradicted that. Their belief in the abilty of the Cell chips they jointly developed with IBM indicate they feel the PS3 can process HD video in excellent quality, including 7.1 surround.. without compromises. They view the PS3 as much more than a game system.
Maybe with the issues that have come up with trying to develop HD games for the PS3 have toned down the rhetoric.
Interesting info from Sony, only time will tell what they actually deliver.

Typical Sony hype... The Cell chips are proving to be a lot less powerful than Sony has been claiming (big surprise there). I think John Carmack of Id Software had the best perspective on the PS3 with his comments right after E3. I wish I had a link off the top of my head, but I don't. But the PS3 is still shaping up to be a bit more powerful than Xbox360 so we'll see what comes of the games. And I know that Sony is claiming the PS3 will be a central hub for the home entertainment center. Sure, why not? After all, that's what they originally claimed about the PS2. Primarily the PS3 is a game system, always has been, not sure what you've been reading. In fact, Sony has been ramping up their propaganda lately and they're starting to tout the PS3 as an excellent companion to their VAIO home theatre PCs with the 300 disc DVD changer. As like the XBOX360, the PS3 can stream video and multimedia content from a PC.

As for BD video playback, the Cell chips and graphics capabilities are well beyond what is needed. The PS3 does have 7.1 audio output, just not the discrete connections for those who want them, nor discrete linear PCM over HDMI. If you want 7.1 connectivity, you will have to use the optical audio connection or HDMI. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but for a player that's to be my main HD movie player, I would want to run discrete audio connections from each of the 8 connectors right into the 7.1 inputs of my AV receiver. Much more functionality and control that way. Where the PS3 will falter for BD playback is the software player. And like I've said, I've had more than one Sony rep tell me the same thing on different occasions, so they're either being coached as to what to say or they're speaking the truth. The only reason I can think for them to downplay the PS3's BD capabilities is so that people don't pass on the BDP-S1. OTOH, if what they say is correct, then the potential silver lining is that a software player can be upgraded and there's a good bet that they will since the PS3's own software is supposed to be upgradable.

So I guess we'll see what happens when the system arrives... Personally, I probably won't buy a PS3 as I don't have time to play many games anymore and my XBOX 360 is perfectly fine. I did buy the Samsung BD player on an impulse and returned it because, well, it sucked and I thought it was unacceptable for the price. I doubt I'd buy a Sony BDP-S1 as I can probably fight the impulse now. I think I'll wait a while and see what happens. I'm not real pleased with my Toshiba HD-A1 either. It's a complete POS. Decent HD image quality, but the 1080i output limitation is somewhat disappointing after Toshiba was initially supposed to have 1080p capability. Upconverted DVD quality (that so many people rave over on this player for some reason) is no better than my $250 Sony CX995V DVD changer with HDMI. But it is better than the Samsung upconverting players or that Oppo 1080p piece of crap.

Joe Carney July 17th, 2006 10:15 AM

I was basing my statements on the E3 DVDs I purchased at GameSpot which had the full Sony presentation at the event. I always take promotional stuff with a grain of salt. But it was a lot of senior execs from both Sony and Nividia talking it up. Going to be a lot of egg on the face if they can't deliver.

Jeff Kilgroe July 17th, 2006 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Carney
Going to be a lot of egg on the face if they can't deliver.

Why do you say that? It's always this way... LOADS of hype and then finally a product that doesn't come close to living up to 10% of the BS. Sony did it with the PSX, even worse with the PS2. The claims for PS3 (IMO) aren't as outlandish as how they hyped the PS2 with the whole "emotion engine" deal.

...Nintendo used to be just as bad, but they cleaned up their act with the gamecube and all their releases following. But I think the whole claim of "real time radiosity/GI rendering" for the N64 was a bit much.

I'm not really involved anymore, but I used to work in the games industry. Done my share of development work. I worked on the Dreamcast, PS2 Atari Jaguar, PSX and Sega Saturn. Nobody hypes a system and makes false claims the way Sony does. ;-) And they have enough fanboys and market presence to make the sales happen regardless. And when it all comes down to it, even though it may not come close to the claims, PS3 will still be the most powerful system out there come launch day. Even if it lacks raw CPU power vs. the XBOX360 (which there is tangible evidence showing that it will), the new nVidia chip is killer and the PS3 will have a serious edge for graphics vs the 360. And like the original XBOX, there will be about a few months before we see a superior nVidia chip hit desktop computer systems.

Shawn Jodoin December 18th, 2006 02:39 AM

Toshiba said to be losing $200 on each HD-DVD player sold
 
WOW this was an old post, but I thought I would respond seeing as I have
now purchased four of these suckers. They now make two versions one
for progressive scan and one for high definition. I bought one of each the
other day. - The progressive scan model was I think $49.00 and the high def
model was $79.00 at Costco. Don’t bother with the high definition model
if you don’t have a HDMI port in the back of your T.V. You can really
see the difference between the Panasonic/Toshiba setup’s with and without
the HDMI port especially with title overlays.

Heath McKnight December 18th, 2006 10:53 AM

I can't imagine the cost dropped from $500 to $79. Are you sure you didn't get the model that can take movies that are SD, but were mastered (or re-mastered) in HD, and make them look better in SD? There's an actualy SD DVD player that claims something like that.

heath

Sean Woods December 18th, 2006 02:29 PM

He's got to be talking about the upconverting players, not the HD-DVD ones.

Shawn Jodoin December 19th, 2006 02:27 AM

Toshiba said to be losing $200 on each HD-DVD player sold
 
You are correct Sean, I was talking about the Progressive scan model with
and without HDMI port. Just checked the true HD model out on newegg
and it is running something like $409.00; I guess things are moving along
faster than I thought - I was under the false impression that true High
Definition wasn’t available on rented DVD's only through TIVO or channels
that broadcasted it. Are you telling me that I can go down to Blockbuster
or Hollywood video and rent a full length HD DVD now? The word
High Definition has been seriously abused/ thrown around to much
in my opinion.

Sean Woods December 19th, 2006 06:45 AM

Indeed. I've been enjoying my Toshiba A1 HD-DVD player since july. They just released their 2nd gen A2 player.

Kevin Shaw December 19th, 2006 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Jodoin
Are you telling me that I can go down to Blockbuster
or Hollywood video and rent a full length HD DVD now?

I don't know about the retail stores, but the Blockbuster web site lists almost 150 titles on HD-DVD at http://www.blockbuster.com/online/ca...?listRef=hdDVD, and a similar number on Blu-ray. It's a little tricky though: you have to go to the title and click on the "All Editions" option to see the HD version.

Guy Cochran December 19th, 2006 01:58 PM

Netflix has a pretty nice HD DVD selection.

If you have an XBOX 360 you can get a USB HD DVD External drive for $199.
Comes with the remote and King Kong too.

There's already hacks out on the net to make the USB drive work on a PC too. Wonder how much MS loses on those USB drives. They sell the XBOX 360's at a loss.

Shawn Jodoin December 19th, 2006 06:45 PM

Toshiba said to be losing $200 on each HD-DVD player sold
 
Do any of you guys subscribe to the theory that in some cases HD
looks to real for certain movies? The only taste of true HD I have
had the opportunity to view was at the Good Guys here in Reno
before they closed shop. They had this mini theater room set up for
displaying their projector units. The lights were all set perfect by
light meters for each unit according to the lumens and so forth. They
demonstrated this movie I guess it would be the equivalent of Space Station
9 or something. My first impression was that the lady looked more like
someone wearing a costume, goofy almost with that much clarity. Maybe
it wasn’t shot or edited to 24p, I doubt it was shot on film to begin with?

My other experience is with my progressive scan Toshiba connected to
my LCD Panasonic via HDMI port. When I watched the latest Star Wars
move the battle scene in the beginning was so crisp that it made R2D2 look
more like a toy. What so you guys think and thoughts on this?

C.S. Michael December 19th, 2006 08:40 PM

I have the XBox HD-DVD player.

So far, I've watched about a half dozen movies in the HD-DVD format.

Probably the best was "The Searchers," a 1956 John Wayne movie. That's the really cool thing about HD-DVD...it may revive interest in some older, beautifully shot films.

As far as the new Star Wars goes.... I do think that HD-DVD exposes the flaws of CGI. But I felt that some of the Star Wars CGI was flawed upon first viewing the films in the theater. CGI can be a useful storytelling tool, but it's a poor substitute for reality. I'll take real snow over CGI snow every time...

Boyd Ostroff December 19th, 2006 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Jodoin
When I watched the latest Star Wars
move the battle scene in the beginning was so crisp that it made R2D2 look
more like a toy.

Personally I hate the CGI in all the new Star Wars movies and it has nothing to do with HD or the medium itself. It has a comic book appearance, which may very well be what Lucas wanted, but I get tired of that very quickly.

But you still seem to be talking about standard definition progressive scan DVD's and not HD DVD's...

Shawn Jodoin December 19th, 2006 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff
Personally I hate the CGI in all the new Star Wars movies and it has nothing to do with HD or the medium itself. It has a comic book appearance, which may very well be what Lucas wanted, but I get tired of that very quickly.

But you still seem to be talking about standard definition progressive scan DVD's and not HD DVD's...


Hi Boyd, I was not speeking of SD inside the Good Guys, my reference to
progressive scan one more time I know, was only to indicate that -even
in SD-progressive scan R2 looks like a toy - I would hate to see how bad
he looks in HD.


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