Classifieds - Selling to Alaska/Hawaii

[Seth Bloombaum]

(Chris suggested that some community discussion would be appropriate on this suggestion)

As a former resident of the 50th state, I'd like to offer anything I sell equally to Alaska & Hawaii as to CONUS. (USPS delivers, so do UPS & Fedex, no customs forms, etc.) Almost all here are selling on the basis "buyer pays shipping". I don't want to sell over a border, so, NA/SA or even NA don't work for me.

Do US sellers really not want to deal with Alaska/Hawaii? The conventions make it easier to sell to Canada, Mexico and South America than AK/HI!

Below are the current conventions - you'll see that Hawaii has become international, or even extraterrestrial, though really a state since 1959. Let's put the United back in the United States and invite Alaska/Hawaii residents to join our economic democracy!

_____________________________________________________
CONUS: Continental United States only. If doing business beyond the Lower 48 but within the hemisphere, please choose NA/SA. If doing business internationally, please choose INTL.

UK/EU: United Kingdom and / or European Union, from the British Isles to Eastern Europe.

AU/NZ: Australia and / or New Zealand, and possibly Oceania (see AS/RU below).

CAN: Canada only; otherwise please choose NA/SA.

AS/RU: Asia and / or Russia, including Korea, Japan, China, Indonesia and India. Folks living within the spectrum of Oceania should consider either this category or AU/NZ.

NA/SA: North and / or South America. Not only for Mexico and Central and South American countries, but also for U.S. and Canadian folks willing to ship cross-border or cross-continent.

AF/ME: Africa and / or the Middle East. Yes, technically the Middle East is part of Asia, but it's partnered here with Africa due to their geographic proximities.

INTL: International, meaning you're willing to ship internationally, or you're in an area not covered by the codes above, such as Hawaii, Antarctica, the International Space Station, etc.

[Dave Blackhurst]

The only challenge I see for AK/HI is that shipping is going to be higher for SOME ship options. I recently researched shipping some items to US TERRITORIES (not even states!), and found the rates via USPS comparable. I wouldn't expect the same from FE and UPS (even Canadian shipping on high $ items is problematic with broker fees and such with those).

USPS is often the best option, but with high value items, the insurance can add up, and quickly! AND IF YOU DON'T BUY INSURANCE... THAT WILL BE THE PACKAGE THAT MAGICALLY "GOT LOST"!!!! Did I mention insurance is a MANDATORY part of shipping cost? Not every USPS shipping option allows for full insurance either, so that can factor in too - faster options typically allow insurance when slower ones often don't, probably on the theory the longer they have it, the more likely they are to lose it!

I think that specifying that the buyer pays shipping and having them contact you before the purchase is the best policy. That way, no surprises. That's how I handle stuff on eBay, works fine. I know this may seem like a pain for 'casual' sales, but if it's a high $ item, it only takes a few short minutes to look up rates on USPS.com, etc...

Shipping is so weight and value (and to a lesser degree size) dependent, it's preferable to know where something is going before you quote shipping.

As far as international sales, I take those on a case by case basis, nothing EVER goes out to certain geographic regions known for fraud, nothing goes without a tracking method and insurance, and I try to "vet" the buyer so I know who I'm dealing with. I've had more than a few "unusual" transactions along the way, but those guidelines have worked well for me over several years and other than one irreplacable package to Canada that somehow didn't get insured... and of course disappeared.... I've not had a problem.

Of course YMMV, but that's my take on the question.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

...I think that specifying that the buyer pays shipping and having them contact you before the purchase is the best policy. That way, no surprises...

Quite agreed - AK and HI shipping will almost always cost more. However people who live there know this is part of living there; to me it is reasonable for buyer to pick up shipping costs no matter where they live.

[Larry Price]

I'm fortunate enough to live in Hawaii. Higher costs for shipping are simply a portion of the "Paradise Tax" we island dwellers reluctantly accept. I've found that for most things, FedEx and UPS rates are reasonable, though higher than mainland rates. In short, I fully agree with Seth's proposal. The current forum convention of lumpling AK and HI in with NA/SA is undesirable. Far too many internet vendors already refuse to ship to Hawaii, largely out of ignorance about what shipping actually costs. I know it'll cost more, and I'm willing to pay for it. Don't exclude me as a potential customer on the misguided assumption that I won't be willing to pay the freight costs. Give me the option of making that call.

Mahalo nui loa
(Thank you very much)

[George Kroonder]

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

I'd like to offer anything I sell equally to Alaska & Hawaii as to CONUS. (USPS delivers, so do UPS & Fedex, no customs forms, etc.) Almost all here are selling on the basis "buyer pays shipping".

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

When listing your item for sale on this forum, or when making a Want To Buy query, please choose the appropriate thread prefix from the drop-down menu to the left of the title field of your post to indicate what you're doing and where you are.

So the prefix doesn't really say anything about who you are willing to sell to, but where you are selling it from (or for a WTB where you are, wanting to buy something).

It is an aide for the buyer to easily determine 'whereabouts' the gear is. I presume this has got to do with shipping costs, warranty, AC power or whatever else would be different between the geo regions.

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

I don't want to sell over a border, so, NA/SA or even NA don't work for me.

It is up to you to make any other restrictions known in your post, like "Won't sell cross border".

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

Do US sellers really not want to deal with Alaska/Hawaii? The conventions make it easier to sell to Canada, Mexico and South America than AK/HI!

There is the thing that if you are in HI - or AK - you're sort of off the map and don't really fit in with any of the prefixes. But how big of an issue is this really?

For selling stuff; well it is your prerogative whom you want to sell to. My personal opinion is that it makes little sense to exclude 90% of the world population for geographical reasons.

George/

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by George Kroonder

My personal opinion is that it makes little sense to exclude 90% of the world population for geographical reasons.

I think there are several reasons why many folks, including myself, choose to geographically limit the scope of their sale. First, if the language is the same and the time zones aren't far apart, it's much easier to follow up by telephone (it's always a good idea to discuss the sale by telephone; discussing it in person is even better). Second, shipping across borders can be a *real* hassle, what with VAT, duties, tariffs and other annoying fees. Third, in the event of a scam, the prospect of hunting down a scammer and breaking some fingers is much more viable in one's own geographic area.

For Seth, if INTL isn't applicable, what if I added CONUS+AKHI to the list of prefixes?

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Larry Price

...Far too many internet vendors already refuse to ship to Hawaii, largely out of ignorance about what shipping actually costs...

Ignorance or laziness? If you're putting together a shopping cart application on the cheap, it's much easier to freeze your shipping costs at a figure that covers 48 states than to deal with the added shipping cost to AK/HI.

Of course this doesn't apply to our US classified sellers, they're usually quoting actual shipping from ups.com or fedex.com, or using flat-rate usps priority.

Originally Posted by George Kroonder

...It is an aide for the buyer to easily determine 'whereabouts' the gear is. I presume this has got to do with shipping costs, warranty, AC power or whatever else would be different between the geo regions.

In this case, we're talking about inside the USA, warranties and ac power are the same. I think the only issue is that some parts of the US are further away and cost more to ship to. And then, there are some people, even in the US, who think of Hawaii as a far-away exotic foreign land, and think of Alaska as a cabin in the snow as depicted by storyteller Jack London, and not a market at all.

Originally Posted by George Kroonder

...There is the thing that if you are in HI - or AK - you're sort of off the map and don't really fit in with any of the prefixes. But how big of an issue is this really?

For selling stuff; well it is your prerogative whom you want to sell to...

Well, it is a big deal to people who live there. They are in the USA, they don't feel they are off the map, but current DVInfo listing conventions would tend to lead a US-based seller to exclude them.

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

...For Seth, if INTL isn't applicable, what if I added CONUS+AKHI to the list of prefixes?

To my experiences of exclusion from the mainstream of the US while living in Hawaii it doesn't quite satisfy, but as a practical matter it seems reasonable. Just sharing my feelings here, and appreciate that Chris has succeeded admirably in building an online community, and probably knows more about this than me.

[Chris Hurd]

Well, the entire concept of using thread prefixes in the Classifieds forum is pretty much new and uncharted territory for me. I don't want to bog it down with too many prefix options, but otherwise it can seem rather exclusive.

[George Kroonder]

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

Well, it is a big deal to people who live there. They are in the USA, they don't feel they are off the map,

I can't speak for anyone but myself and I've not had the pleasure of living in Hawaii, but I don't believe DVInfo is exclusive of "the territories" outside the contiguous US states at all.

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

but current DVInfo listing conventions would tend to lead a US-based seller to exclude them.

Nope, the way I read it is that the designation simply states where you are, either selling or wanting to buy gear.

It does not exclude anyone (in the World or beyond) from responding to your ad, however for practical reasons a potential buyer may not be interested in items from far, far away.

As far as I know FS-CONUS simply translates to "For Sale in the Continental United States". This may imply a "local" sale/transaction, but really doesn't exclude anything. It just states where the item is offered for sale. I could hop on a cheap flight and buy it at your doorstep, but would more likely prefer not to waste so much time and arrange shipping.

For me this is the same if I'm located somewhere in the US, in Hawaii or in The Netherlands (Holland to some) where I happen to reside. As long as:
- You get paid (I'd say upfront)
- and I get the gear (I'd say FedEx/UPS)
I see no reason not to do business.

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I think there are several reasons why many folks, including myself, choose to geographically limit the scope of their sale.

I am, in general, an active proponent of the "buy local" principle. Even if I buy stuff in Germany I will often hop in the car and go pick it up; although I try to limit it to locations not more than ~4 hours away...

But I'm not trying to convince anyone they should change what they're doing. However on occasion I can relate to Seth's sentiment of feeling "excluded" for (IMHO) arbitrary reasons.

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

First, if the language is the same and the time zones aren't far apart, it's much easier to follow up by telephone (it's always a good idea to discuss the sale by telephone; discussing it in person is even better).

Sure, language could be a problem but is it here on DVInfo?

The phone thing, that is just timing. Between Europe and the US it is really a minor issue. And sure writing English - with a spell checker - is different from speaking it (possibly with a "funny" accent). But most deals I see in the classifieds are really well described and don't seem to require extensive discussion.

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Second, shipping across borders can be a *real* hassle, what with VAT, duties, tariffs and other annoying fees.

I can't deny that those are less than fun, but "over here" we (should) know about them. FedEx/UPS or local postal service will take care of (billing!) these charges on delivery. The "form" you need to fill in when shipping is simple, so I don't consider that a real imposition.

And sure sometimes buyers will try to get out of paying taxes by asking to declare gear differently. I'd advice anyone to just not do that.

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Third, in the event of a scam, the prospect of hunting down a scammer and breaking some fingers is much more viable in one's own geographic area.

I don't really agree mostly because if it is a "good" scam they could be next door and you wouldn't know it.

With any (business) transaction there needs to be trust between the parties. Trust and reputation are things you earn and even though I personally believe in the goodness and honesty of people (seriously), I am cautious when doing business with people for the first (or second) time. Especially when I don't know them and/or can't meet them in person. That said I haven't had bad experiences and I've been buying (and occasionally selling) online internationally for over 10 years.

Just using some common sense gets you pretty far and if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. I always look for prompt responses to emails and queries for more info.

For payment I like to use EFT - pretty much the standard in Europe BTW - because I know who's account I'm paying into and the bank has verified the identities of both parties; it also has the least transaction costs (and I'm Dutch). Paypal does a fairly good job as well, but I only use that for small transactions. I stay away from scam magnets like Western Union or dubious 3rd party payment sites.

Shipping usually is no issue, but I have in the past simply arranged a FedEx pickup on our business account.

This works for me.

As for the good peoples of HI and AK in relation to FS items in classifieds. If you really need/want to specifically include them, I'd say just make this clear in your post.

A simple "Will ship to all 50 states but not beyond" would do, no?

George/

[David Grove]

"For Seth, if INTL isn't applicable, what if I added CONUS+AKHI to the list of prefixes?"


What if we just called CONUS+AKHI by the name "US"?

:)

DG

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by David Grove

What if we just called CONUS+AKHI by the name "US"?

D'oh! *slapping forehead*

There is a bit of a problem with the simplicity of that, however. Different people define the geographic aspect of "US" or "USA" differently. To some folks, it includes the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. To others, it's just the 50 states. Where does one draw the line...

[Seth Bloombaum]

An old thread, but the concern remains!

I was reminded of this when I tried to add my own FS-US: prefix to a classified ad, and the system required me to use an existing prefix, FS-CONUS.

Lots of good points above. My concern - I lived in Hawaii for 20+ years, and I know what it feels like to be part of the US, but not perceived to be part of the US by so many people. It's a form of bias/discrimination, really.

USPS priority mail - same cost over 50 states, and for good reason. Trackable and insureable.
FEDEX & UPS - Air service only, reliable and costly.

Can't we let sellers and buyers work this out?

[Ervin Farkas]

I am also in favor of dropping all these prefixes, alltogether.

Shipping half way across the Blue Planet might cost exactly the same amount as shipping to my neighbor down the street (except if we're both friendly enough to meet in person). A few month ago I was shipping something to Palau... oh... just about 10.000 miles away. Yup, USPS charged me domestic rates!

Buyers pay for shipping anyway, so why not let the two of them work it all out?

[Chris Hurd]

We're keeping the prefixes. I'm not doubting any anecdotal evidence
which claims that international shipping is a non-issue; however, in
my experience it very often is an issue, especially when shipping
to Canada and to Europe.

As far +AKHI, sold. I'll add US+AKHI to the prefix list. There's still
a significant difference in shipping to the American "frontier" so
we'll keep the CONUS-only designation as well.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Chris, thanks!

Alaska, Hawaii - please buy lots of stuff and request Priority Mail :-)

Of course the reverse is true as well, for shipping *from* AK/HI. And a warm Aloha to Film & Video folks in the 50th state!

Thanks,
Seth
ex-UH, ex-KHET/HPTV, ex-KGMB