So what's the deal with HDMOM?

Peter Gjevre · June 3rd, 2009, 11:07 AM

I have to agree with Phil. The HD-MOM thing kind of alienates those of us low budget/indie people and makes those of us with a medical background think of hemodialysis and milk of magnesia!

Good color-scheme though!

Jack Kelly · June 3rd, 2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Bloom

the low budget indie film maker doesn't want to be called a soccer mom!

Exactly.

I suspect that calling a tech forum "HDMom" will alienate a large portion of the target audience. I would hazard a guess that Moms of any description will form a vanishingly small portion of the target audience for cameras like the GH1.

Chris Hurd · June 3rd, 2009, 12:59 PM

The feedback is greatly appreciated, I'm mulling over... but just wanted to point out that we really don't draw much of the low-budget indie filmmaker market; they're already better served elsewhere on the web. I was looking at this from a broader perspective (although I'll concede that filmmakers are without a doubt a highly vocal bunch who love to chat online).

Phil Bloom · June 3rd, 2009, 02:38 PM

I get what you are saying Chris, that's why we need to build on those markets. Am very keen to help bolster the GH1 part and the 5dmk2 part. Am talking about 5dmk2 workflow at the UK FCPUG this month and am pushing this camera a lot.

More people need to see dvinfo.net as THE place to get un-biased friendly advice. One of the only places on the net where you can.

HD MOM can literally be a simple forum and advice section covering what they want and need.

I don't think DVinfo.net will benefit by being diluted and I think it will drive away the sub $2000 to the "other" site!

There has been HUGE interest in the GH1 on my site and all from budding film makers, let's get some more articles and content on DVinfo and make it the place to go to.

Cheers and have a Salt Licks for me

Phi

David Knaggs · June 3rd, 2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

the low-budget indie filmmaker market; they're already better served elsewhere on the web.

They might be more "popularly" served elsewhere on the web. But not better served. I'm going to have to stick up for DV Info here, Chris.

The thing that CONSTANTLY changes in indie filmmaking is not the artistry. It's the gear! An ever-improving array of cameras, NLEs, etc. means you have to have a community of people finding and solving bugs in the workflows (there always are with new cameras!) plus being informed of ways to get better results with each of these tools and making the most of the possibilities.

Sure, you could go to a site which is basically a fan-club for one particular brand of camera, with a club-house vibe ("C'mon gang, let's have some fun!") and the endless metadata which that generates. Or you can come to the site which, as Phil Bloom just said is, "THE place to get un-biased friendly advice. One of the only places on the net where you can."

Anything sub-$10K is definitely in the "sweet spot" for a low-budget indie (I've currently got my heart set on an S35 Scarlet) and about 8 years ago I would have killed (figuratively-speaking) to get my hands on a camera which can deliver what these sub-$2K cameras are now capable of doing.

The inherent strength in how you've structured DV Info makes it, in my opinion, the indie's best friend.

Chris Soucy · June 3rd, 2009, 05:13 PM

coloured by my own peculiarly warped viewpoint (we all have 'em!).

Have to add my no vote to that name, but hey, what's in a name?

My biggest concern is what the "HD MOM - ers" will be missing out on, based on whether I believe I will be making a habit of "dropping in" on the "MOM - ers" or not.

(Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not that big headed I think my absence (from HD MOM) will really be missed).

However, a couple of examples:

The Tools of DV and HD Production,

Standard Definition (DV) Aquisition,

DV/ HD Post Production...and Beyond,

Community Marketplace

How many hardened DVinfo - ers will be leaving their habitual grazing to wonder over to HD MOM for a feed?

If, as I suspect (perhaps incorrectly, tho' quite probable in my case) Dvinfo'ers can't be persuaded to visit HD MOM, then the HD MOM - ers have just lost access to many of the regular contributors to the above forums (I'm assuming being a HD MOM doesn't give you automatic posting rights on DVinfo?).

I can see what you're attempting Chris and am torn between positive views about splitting pro/ consumer and negative views about what both forums lose in the process.

There, how's that for sitting fair and square on the fence?

CS

Bruce Foreman · June 3rd, 2009, 07:33 PM

Well, I'm not sitting on any fence.

I know dvinfo.net is getting pretty big and it takes me quite a while to peruse through all of the forums I'm interested in. But I much prefer it over other more consumer oriented sites I frequent.

I am not involved in professional videomaking but am very serious about what I do with it and fully appreciate the input and advice from the working pro's who share their knowledge and experience. I feel that moving what is considered consumer oriented forums/users away from dvinfo.net could be a move in the wrong direction for what I consider the best video forum going.

The "real name" requirment did not put me off in any way. I feel more comfortable in recieving info and advice from someone who is not hiding behind a "screen name".

Just my thoughts. Probably worth what you paid for them.

Bruce Foreman

Chris Hurd · June 3rd, 2009, 09:36 PM

Thanks for all of the input so far -- much appreciated!

I can easily restore the DVi consumer camera boards (in fact, per Phil's argument above, the GH1 forum is once again active here, go check it out). In all honesty, I didn't think y'all would mind the split that much, since we're only talking about 4% of the total amount of DVi's posts (roughly 42,000 out of more than 1 million total).

The reason why I linked them out of here is mainly just to avoid duplicate content. That won't be a continuing problem though if a consumer camcorder board on DVi goes in a separate direction via pro-oriented conversations, vs. an anonymous consumer-oriented forum on the same camera model.

One way to approach it is to cover the entire consumer HD camcorder gamut on the consumer site, and have only certain select higher-end consumer models "voted in" to DVi by our members here. It's a bit easier to delineate with the post-production side of things; we'll always have the higher end NLE solutions here, and the sub-$200 applications on the other forum (maybe with some overlap when it comes to Vegas and similar price points).

Once again, I think some of you guys might be taking this move the wrong way... it's not my intention to split up the DVi audience; instead it's to create a new space for a crowd that we don't have yet, or let's say a crowd that we might have now that isn't posting for whatever reason (our lurker-to-member ratio is about 10:1). It's not about forcing you to look at two separate sites; it's about garnering new folks that we wouldn't get otherwise.

I've thought long and hard about making DVi be "everything under one roof," but the reality of it is that for the lower-cost consumer-level stuff, the real names requirement has got to go. Of course that's been DVi's hallmark and the key to its success at the pro level, and I'm not about to compromise that policy just to snag the consumer crowd. That's the reason for a separate domain. I'm able to kick-start it with a dump from our existing consumer fora here, but it doesn't mean that we can't keep them around -- again, my reason for linking the re-directs is just to avoid duplicate content. But hey, believe me, I want to keep you happy.

Shame on me for not putting more thought into the non-U.S. reaction to the domain name. Like I said, it's only five letters and only three syllables, which isn't easy to come by anymore as far as domain names go. That's its primary appeal for me. I'm not married to it, but I'm not sure how I would replace it.

Thanks again,

Bryan Daugherty · June 3rd, 2009, 10:43 PM

I must admit i think this concept is a great idea but I am not sure about seeding it with our posts from DVi. I think there are some benefits from carrying over some of the posts from here especially ones geared at consumer branded cams and NLE's but I am not so sure about taking whole divisions lock, stock, and smoking barrel. For example, i just glanced through the "HD mom" A1U board and these threads caught my eye:
HVR-A1U Equivalent for Low-Light - HD Mom
Anyone use a Redrock micro 35mm adapter with the A1? - HD Mom
When RENDER AS using Vegas 8, which template will give you best HD video output - HD Mom
Granted there is good info there but it is not from a perspective that would benefit most common shooters. With over a million threads on DVinfo.net, it is impossible to go through and weed out threads that are over the top but perhaps it is not so impossible to put out a call to those of us who are on here regularly (major players, wranglers, regulars, etc) to find 10 threads to suggest for transfer that would appeal to casual users and maybe even to request a few of us to go start threads that we think would help the average shooter. Highly technical discussions will only confuse most casual users and I would be very turned off as a user if the site content was way over my head...

I am also concerned about using price points to justify classifications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

...I set the cutoff at around $2000 though...Sony HD1000, since it really is one of only two full-size shoulder mount camcorders costing less than $2000...

As an HD1000U owner, I agree with the B&H and SONY classifications that this is a prosumer camera. Perhaps the muddy water solution is to add a fora on HDmom that is called high-end consumer/prosumer cameras and address those camera there and leave them here because in the end I think you said it best...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

...The delineation between "consumer" vs. "professional" has always been in how it's used...

And a consumer searching the internet for information on how to get the footage from their camera to a DVD is interested in things like iMovie, Windows Movie Maker, Nero Express, Final Cut Express, Adobe Elements and others that are free or under $150. They typically are not interested in Vegas Pro, FCP, CS3 or CS4, and on and on... They want to know the best way to do what we do without our prices and by posting our threads geared toward professional usage on a consumer board without filtering it could give the casual viewer the thought that Redrocks and Vegas pro 8 are consumer products and could perceptually devalue the trade you have worked so hard to uphold to the highest standards. I know that would never be your intention.

In fact, I think the concept is great. Like doctors being asked to look at this and tell me what you think, I often have people asking me how they can convert their VHS and Hi-8 tapes to DVD. The concept of capturing, rendering, and authoring seem very foreign to most of my clients unfamiliar to our trade and knowledge is a great thing. Sorry for the long post, I will now step off my soapbox by summing up that I think this is a great concept but vary with you on the current deployment...

One last thought have you considered the domain "HD4Home.com"

Meryem Ersoz · June 3rd, 2009, 10:48 PM

you people have too many mommy issues and should schedule appointments with your therapists at once! Calling Dr. Freud, HD MOM is in the house!

Web spaces are funny things. People really take the online spaces that they occupy very seriously and they squat hard. Lots of DVCers have never ventured into the basement to UWOL and many UWOLers ignore the upstairs neighbors. And these are 2 forums that sit right on top of each other and have a similar mission - much harder to get folks to migrate to a whole 'nother site.

I have to agree that the pro/consumer split is a little hard to swallow on the basis of camera types, in this day and age. I have had HV10 and HV20 footage cut into TV shows...

Phil Bloom · June 4th, 2009, 03:44 AM

Soccer Mom is also a uniquely US phenomenon. I find it really funny that soccer is so linked to really just young kids in the US whereas in the rest of the worlds it's the most popular sport there is!

I don't think most people outside the US will get where HD Mom comes from because of this. My mum would never come watch me play "football" when I was younger, but my dad did! But hey, what do i know, am a Brit!

But, in all reality the largest audience for this site is the US without a doubt and the name will appeal to the, non-pro audience.

I do agree that a lot of the posts from dvinfo.net on the HD-Mom board are going to be WAY over the head of most consumers and scare them away. It really needs to be a back to basics board. They don't care about bitrates, 35mm adaptors, colourspace etc...they care about price, what the picture quality is like and how they can use it in the home video environment. There are more serious "Soccer Moms" out there, as in people who want to take their home video hobby to the next level and to be honest, I think they are already members here.

It just needs to be a completely separate entity. I am more than happy to post info on there for the consumer who knows nothing to help out and keep my more technical posts for dvinfo.

Mike Burgess · June 4th, 2009, 05:03 AM

Hey Chris. Having trouble logging into your new forum. When I try to log in, it says that I have, but then it says I have to log in again, and again, and again. It won't let me in.

Mike

Oh yeah, and my log in is always in upper case. Is that suppose to be?

Ted Ramasola · June 4th, 2009, 06:14 AM

As a brand name for a consumer camera forum HDMOM is not representative of a wide geodemographic and sociodemographic.

Mom is not used in asia, and that where I am at. Its sooo american.

This will alienate some of the males from a website as it has a very feminine look and feel due to its name. Not being sexist here I'm just basing this from data from a lot of researches being done for market segmentation and analysis.

From a video professional's point of view, its not right to remove those types of cameras to a "consumer" site as a lot of prefessionals also have those and can be a source of rich info for assisting the beginners or other pro's who just happen to buy a "consumer" cam.

I for one don't want to open up several websites to get assistance. I like it here where we interact civilly with real names.

When people use there real names they act like real people.

Respectfully,

Ted

Bob Thieda · June 4th, 2009, 06:55 AM

The one thing I see is that it could make it a little awkward for those who use both types of cameras.
Many of the "pro type" guys and gals often use a smaller, more consumer type camera as a second cam.
They have now lost the "one stop shopping" appeal of this place.

I first came here when I had a couple of Pana GS250s. I learned a lot about sound, editing and general video tips from the pros on here...
I also learned about the more professional cameras and eventually got one.
Well that happen at HD Mom? I don't think so.

One surprise was moving the AVCHD Format...there are higher end cameras using that codec now and more coming.

The HDMOM name? Well it is a bit silly. ;) If I was googling up a forum for camera info, I'm not sure it would be my first choice.

And I really, really cannot believe that having to use your real name is an issue.
It was a surprise when I joined, but it certainly didn't stop me and I cannot imagine why it would stop anyone else.

On the flip side, still love this place and visit every day. Thanks Chris!

Bob

Martin Labelle · June 4th, 2009, 07:22 AM

As a user of Sony HVR- A1u, I don't like that my camera which I use for pro work qualify me as a Video mom. Its still a professionnal camera as much as the HVR-HD1000 or the Canon GL2. Also, I see a lot of dealers in Montreal who don't advertise(or sell) the Hvr-Hd1000. I don't have much time to spend on the web and I would like to spend my time on dvinfo, I would not be proud to say to people for good information you need HDMOM.

Hakuna Matata!

June 3rd, 2009, 11:07 AM	#16
Peter Gjevre Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Gackle, ND Posts: 30	I have to agree with Phil. The HD-MOM thing kind of alienates those of us low budget/indie people and makes those of us with a medical background think of hemodialysis and milk of magnesia! Good color-scheme though! __________________ www.atomicchihuahuas.com

June 3rd, 2009, 12:59 PM	#18
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 23,178 Images: 513	The feedback is greatly appreciated, I'm mulling over... but just wanted to point out that we really don't draw much of the low-budget indie filmmaker market; they're already better served elsewhere on the web. I was looking at this from a broader perspective (although I'll concede that filmmakers are without a doubt a highly vocal bunch who love to chat online). __________________ CH Search DV Info Net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DV Info Net Sponsors \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

June 3rd, 2009, 02:38 PM	#19
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,910	I get what you are saying Chris, that's why we need to build on those markets. Am very keen to help bolster the GH1 part and the 5dmk2 part. Am talking about 5dmk2 workflow at the UK FCPUG this month and am pushing this camera a lot. More people need to see dvinfo.net as THE place to get un-biased friendly advice. One of the only places on the net where you can. HD MOM can literally be a simple forum and advice section covering what they want and need. I don't think DVinfo.net will benefit by being diluted and I think it will drive away the sub $2000 to the "other" site! There has been HUGE interest in the GH1 on my site and all from budding film makers, let's get some more articles and content on DVinfo and make it the place to go to. Cheers and have a Salt Licks for me Phi __________________ Philip Bloom DoP, Director, Editor.www.philipbloom.co.uk New Video DSLR section launched: http://philipbloom.co.uk/video-dslrs//

June 3rd, 2009, 05:13 PM	#21
Chris Soucy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 1,903 Images: 18	My two cents............... coloured by my own peculiarly warped viewpoint (we all have 'em!). Have to add my no vote to that name, but hey, what's in a name? My biggest concern is what the "HD MOM - ers" will be missing out on, based on whether I believe I will be making a habit of "dropping in" on the "MOM - ers" or not. (Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not that big headed I think my absence (from HD MOM) will really be missed). However, a couple of examples: The Tools of DV and HD Production, Standard Definition (DV) Aquisition, DV/ HD Post Production...and Beyond, Community Marketplace How many hardened DVinfo - ers will be leaving their habitual grazing to wonder over to HD MOM for a feed? If, as I suspect (perhaps incorrectly, tho' quite probable in my case) Dvinfo'ers can't be persuaded to visit HD MOM, then the HD MOM - ers have just lost access to many of the regular contributors to the above forums (I'm assuming being a HD MOM doesn't give you automatic posting rights on DVinfo?). I can see what you're attempting Chris and am torn between positive views about splitting pro/ consumer and negative views about what both forums lose in the process. There, how's that for sitting fair and square on the fence? CS

June 3rd, 2009, 09:36 PM	#23
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 23,178 Images: 513	Thanks for all of the input so far -- much appreciated! I can easily restore the DVi consumer camera boards (in fact, per Phil's argument above, the GH1 forum is once again active here, go check it out). In all honesty, I didn't think y'all would mind the split that much, since we're only talking about 4% of the total amount of DVi's posts (roughly 42,000 out of more than 1 million total). The reason why I linked them out of here is mainly just to avoid duplicate content. That won't be a continuing problem though if a consumer camcorder board on DVi goes in a separate direction via pro-oriented conversations, vs. an anonymous consumer-oriented forum on the same camera model. One way to approach it is to cover the entire consumer HD camcorder gamut on the consumer site, and have only certain select higher-end consumer models "voted in" to DVi by our members here. It's a bit easier to delineate with the post-production side of things; we'll always have the higher end NLE solutions here, and the sub-$200 applications on the other forum (maybe with some overlap when it comes to Vegas and similar price points). Once again, I think some of you guys might be taking this move the wrong way... it's not my intention to split up the DVi audience; instead it's to create a new space for a crowd that we don't have yet, or let's say a crowd that we might have now that isn't posting for whatever reason (our lurker-to-member ratio is about 10:1). It's not about forcing you to look at two separate sites; it's about garnering new folks that we wouldn't get otherwise. I've thought long and hard about making DVi be "everything under one roof," but the reality of it is that for the lower-cost consumer-level stuff, the real names requirement has got to go. Of course that's been DVi's hallmark and the key to its success at the pro level, and I'm not about to compromise that policy just to snag the consumer crowd. That's the reason for a separate domain. I'm able to kick-start it with a dump from our existing consumer fora here, but it doesn't mean that we can't keep them around -- again, my reason for linking the re-directs is just to avoid duplicate content. But hey, believe me, I want to keep you happy. Shame on me for not putting more thought into the non-U.S. reaction to the domain name. Like I said, it's only five letters and only three syllables, which isn't easy to come by anymore as far as domain names go. That's its primary appeal for me. I'm not married to it, but I'm not sure how I would replace it. Thanks again, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DV Info Net Sponsors \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

June 3rd, 2009, 07:33 PM	#22
Bruce Foreman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Angelo Texas Posts: 932	Well, I'm not sitting on any fence. I know dvinfo.net is getting pretty big and it takes me quite a while to peruse through all of the forums I'm interested in. But I much prefer it over other more consumer oriented sites I frequent. I am not involved in professional videomaking but am very serious about what I do with it and fully appreciate the input and advice from the working pro's who share their knowledge and experience. I feel that moving what is considered consumer oriented forums/users away from dvinfo.net could be a move in the wrong direction for what I consider the best video forum going. The "real name" requirment did not put me off in any way. I feel more comfortable in recieving info and advice from someone who is not hiding behind a "screen name". Just my thoughts. Probably worth what you paid for them. Bruce Foreman

June 3rd, 2009, 10:48 PM	#25
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 2,790	you people have too many mommy issues and should schedule appointments with your therapists at once! Calling Dr. Freud, HD MOM is in the house! Web spaces are funny things. People really take the online spaces that they occupy very seriously and they squat hard. Lots of DVCers have never ventured into the basement to UWOL and many UWOLers ignore the upstairs neighbors. And these are 2 forums that sit right on top of each other and have a similar mission - much harder to get folks to migrate to a whole 'nother site. I have to agree that the pro/consumer split is a little hard to swallow on the basis of camera types, in this day and age. I have had HV10 and HV20 footage cut into TV shows...

June 4th, 2009, 03:44 AM	#26
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,910	Soccer Mom is also a uniquely US phenomenon. I find it really funny that soccer is so linked to really just young kids in the US whereas in the rest of the worlds it's the most popular sport there is! I don't think most people outside the US will get where HD Mom comes from because of this. My mum would never come watch me play "football" when I was younger, but my dad did! But hey, what do i know, am a Brit! But, in all reality the largest audience for this site is the US without a doubt and the name will appeal to the, non-pro audience. I do agree that a lot of the posts from dvinfo.net on the HD-Mom board are going to be WAY over the head of most consumers and scare them away. It really needs to be a back to basics board. They don't care about bitrates, 35mm adaptors, colourspace etc...they care about price, what the picture quality is like and how they can use it in the home video environment. There are more serious "Soccer Moms" out there, as in people who want to take their home video hobby to the next level and to be honest, I think they are already members here. It just needs to be a completely separate entity. I am more than happy to post info on there for the consumer who knows nothing to help out and keep my more technical posts for dvinfo. __________________ Philip Bloom DoP, Director, Editor.www.philipbloom.co.uk New Video DSLR section launched: http://philipbloom.co.uk/video-dslrs//

June 4th, 2009, 05:03 AM	#27
Mike Burgess Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Traverse City, Michigan Posts: 258	Hey Chris. Having trouble logging into your new forum. When I try to log in, it says that I have, but then it says I have to log in again, and again, and again. It won't let me in. Mike Oh yeah, and my log in is always in upper case. Is that suppose to be?

June 4th, 2009, 06:14 AM	#28
Ted Ramasola Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bohol Island Posts: 505	Not a good idea As a brand name for a consumer camera forum HDMOM is not representative of a wide geodemographic and sociodemographic. Mom is not used in asia, and that where I am at. Its sooo american. This will alienate some of the males from a website as it has a very feminine look and feel due to its name. Not being sexist here I'm just basing this from data from a lot of researches being done for market segmentation and analysis. From a video professional's point of view, its not right to remove those types of cameras to a "consumer" site as a lot of prefessionals also have those and can be a source of rich info for assisting the beginners or other pro's who just happen to buy a "consumer" cam. I for one don't want to open up several websites to get assistance. I like it here where we interact civilly with real names. When people use there real names they act like real people. Respectfully, Ted

June 4th, 2009, 06:55 AM	#29
Bob Thieda Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Carol Stream, IL Posts: 468	The one thing I see is that it could make it a little awkward for those who use both types of cameras. Many of the "pro type" guys and gals often use a smaller, more consumer type camera as a second cam. They have now lost the "one stop shopping" appeal of this place. I first came here when I had a couple of Pana GS250s. I learned a lot about sound, editing and general video tips from the pros on here... I also learned about the more professional cameras and eventually got one. Well that happen at HD Mom? I don't think so. One surprise was moving the AVCHD Format...there are higher end cameras using that codec now and more coming. The HDMOM name? Well it is a bit silly. ;) If I was googling up a forum for camera info, I'm not sure it would be my first choice. And I really, really cannot believe that having to use your real name is an issue. It was a surprise when I joined, but it certainly didn't stop me and I cannot imagine why it would stop anyone else. On the flip side, still love this place and visit every day. Thanks Chris! Bob __________________ www.baatfam.com

June 4th, 2009, 07:22 AM	#30
Martin Labelle Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: montreal Posts: 154	As a user of Sony HVR- A1u, I don't like that my camera which I use for pro work qualify me as a Video mom. Its still a professionnal camera as much as the HVR-HD1000 or the Canon GL2. Also, I see a lot of dealers in Montreal who don't advertise(or sell) the Hvr-Hd1000. I don't have much time to spend on the web and I would like to spend my time on dvinfo, I would not be proud to say to people for good information you need HDMOM. Hakuna Matata!

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