Sony forum area reorganization

Andy Wilkinson · February 1st, 2015, 06:27 AM

That's a VERY good idea Paul. Hopefully Chris can tweak that forum name.

Chris Hurd · February 1st, 2015, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Wood

if the ¨Sony CineAlta and Large Single Sensor¨was renamed to Sony Digital Cinema Cameras, it would take away the ambiguity with the both PMW X70 single large sensor, and the EX1 and EX3 Cine Alta badge...

Yes, I think that's a great idea, thanks.

I really don't want to merge the X70 threads into the XDCAM pro handhelds forum. I'm afraid it'll get lost in there. The other 6,000 topics in that board all deal with XDCAM EX and SxS cards and that's not what the X70 is. So i think the existing X70 forum is going to get re-named to something like "Sony 4K Handhelds," and we'll mix in the FDR-AX1 and the PXW-Z100 (the FDR-AX100 is already in there). I mean, it ain't 4K yet, but it's gonna be.

John Nantz · February 1st, 2015, 02:02 PM

ENG and shoulder-mount designation comment. After following this thread and reading the posts I can't help but reminisce a bit.

Once upon a time it was the "real photographers" who used 8" x 10" cameras and the 4" x 5" was typically called a press camera. In all the old black & white Hollywood movies if they wanted to have a press core showing there'd be all these guys (wearing hats) with their 4 x 5s using flash bulbs.

Time moved on and around the late 1950s the 4 x 5 format became the large format and TLR (Twin Lens Reflex) cameras came in along and the "miniature" 35mm format" which had actually been around since the 1930s but now became really popular. This is for still cameras. What the news reels showed the Press using for video cameras were those huge 35mm cameras with huge spools and maybe a turret mount lens system set on a tripod.

With technology advancements the video cameras got smaller. At some point the news media (big three and/or local) made a switch over to video tape (Betamax and VCR) around the 1980s featuring big cams with large battery packs, but much smaller than the old 35mm cams. Then today the cams in popular ENG use have shrunk still further with shoulder-mount models, flash memory, and much smaller batteries.

The time is July, 2014: Then along comes what seems to be a game-changer with the portent of things to come: the PXW-X70. No longer a shoulder mount cam but very capable of being used as an ENG cam to cover local news. The x70 is right on the cusp of a new wave of cams with impressive specs. JVC will have their GY-HM200 shortly and the rumor mill has it that Canon will come up with something in this market group, too. And all with OIS (shoulder mount not as important) and 4K capability (better for editing).

So what classifies a cam as an ENG cam? Three rings? Shoulder-mount? Heck, we're seeing more and more video on the evening news shot with smart phones that everybody's got. The story is king. For news interviews and reporting, the broadcast companies are penny-pinchers so one-man (person) crews are one way to go and the x70 genre seem to be where things appear be headed, especially with local news companies.

What is amazing is the quality one gets now with the new smart phone cams. For their size they're really awesome, and they don't even have any rings!

Re: Sony model nomenclature: For me at least, I too have a really difficult time keeping track of the Sony models so a "type of cam" would be a good way to organize. I'm also ready for an upgrade but my need is for a versatile ENG-type-of-cam that is relatively compact like the X70 that is FCPX friendly. They're coming and it's difficult waiting.

As an aside, it would be nice to have a "What next cam to get?" section. Currently posts are in areas all over the place.

Andrew Smith · February 1st, 2015, 03:22 PM

There could be a downside to this technological evolution. The smaller the cams are that you use, the less that the public will see you as proper news media. Unless you want to blend in and not be noticed.

Andrew

Jack Zhang · February 2nd, 2015, 02:59 PM

^Guerrilla filmmaking is all about blending in. And with the YouTube generation, that's all they do.

Matt Sharp · February 2nd, 2015, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

^Guerrilla filmmaking is all about blending in. And with the YouTube generation, that's all they do.

I do a lot of video destined for YouTube, from small cameras all the way up to an FS100 fully rigged on a shoulder. I've had it go both ways, where we use an NX70 to blend in with the crowd but you hear people talking about you as the 'guys with the professional camera' and another time shooting with the same NX70 where some extras were asking us why we were using such a tiny camera. Once someone asked if we were doing a student film.

On the other end of the spectrum, walking around with a giant FS100 rig and talent that has a wireless mic (and maybe a BTS photog) we often get, 'Which news station are you with?' and then people balk that we'd use such a huge camera for YouTube. In those situations a camera on your shoulder (even 2x as heavy) beats the NX70/X70 sized handheld cameras if you are doing ENG work for hours at a time. The handful of times I've used 'real' ENG shoulder cams I was amazed at how perfectly balanced they were. Too bad my producers like the shallow DOF look.

Point being, the X70 is not an ENG camera.

Lou Bruno · February 8th, 2015, 07:26 PM

Having been in this field since 1982 and owned every imaginable pro camera, the days are over in the public's eye judging a pro by the size of a camera. Truly over except in my mind. :-)🙈

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Smith

There could be a downside to this technological evolution. The smaller the cams are that you use, the less that the public will see you as proper news media. Unless you want to blend in and not be noticed.

Andrew

John Nantz · February 8th, 2015, 09:53 PM

It may be that a good ENG cam is reaching a size where it can't go much smaller. The optics with OIS and the sensors take up a fair amour of internal space of the cam and shrinking the optics will be really difficult.

The glass itself really hasn't changed much in size in the past 50 years. Throw in the OIS and sensors and it adds to the internal volume. In order to have some control rings and various buttons the body shouldn't get much smaller.

In the old days of 35mm there was focus, f/stop, shutter speed, and ASA/DIN settings. Life was easy. Today, well …. it's mind boggling. Who ever heard of knee settings???

[Editorial comment: now for some fun]

If one is really concerned about the public image then they have to dress it up and act the part:

1. Start with the car with "King TV News" (or whatever the news media name is) plastered on the sides and trunk lid.

2. The pro videographer always wears black video vest. In winter have a black NASCAR-type jacket with red pin-striping. Plaster the sleeves with logos and of course the network proudly emblazoned on the back. Top it off with a black hat with the embroidered patch featuring the company logo, black pants, shoes, and definitely black socks. Headset over the hat and a belt pack around the waist.

3. The cam would have a camera cage or rig with an iKan field monitor, recorder, and all the new fancy electronic goodies that are must- have or in vogue attached and wired up. Throw in an audio case slung over the shoulder.

4. The interviewer has a hand-held RØDE mic (a plug to support our sponsors) with the company name or broadcast letters on four sides and maybe a clipboard or notepad to reference. [Doesn't have to have anything written on the note pad because nobody is going to see it anyway.]

4. Maybe Sony, (this was originally on the Sony board), will donate some embroidered patches for finishing touches. (If you're in the USA south then add STP and Pennzoil patches) [Ed: duck!]

"Back to you" (isn't that what they say to the anchor? Or is the weather next?)

If after all this, if they can't tell you're pro news media I don't know what will.

Derek Heeps · February 10th, 2015, 03:59 AM

I'm sitting here looking at a PDW-F350 which is most certainly shoulder mount ENG type and sports the CineAlta badge on the side - so which of your categories does this fit into ?

Also , no one has so far mentioned DV/DVCAM/HDV cameras which a lot of people still use .

Chris Hurd · February 10th, 2015, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Heeps

I'm sitting here looking at a PDW-F350 which is most certainly shoulder mount ENG type and sports the CineAlta badge on the side - so which of your categories does this fit into?

So the final approach that I took to organizing the Sony boards was to ask the question, "what is it first and foremost?"

I've never been quite sure as to how or why a particular camcorder is badged as CineAlta -- such as the EX1 -- or not badged CineAlta -- such as the FS7. Eventually it all boiled down to putting like with like. As most CineAlta cams (but not all, re: F350) are Digital Cinema configs with large single sensors, they went into a category called "Sony Digital Cinema Camera Systems," per the suggestion of Paul Wood above.

It made more sense to do it that way rather than rally things around the CineAlta badge. Your F350 is first and foremost a shoulder mount ENG camera, so we designated a board just for that purpose: "Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Heeps

Also , no one has so far mentioned DV/DVCAM/HDV cameras which a lot of people still use .

First and foremost they are tape-based, so they all live at "Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems." The only reason why they weren't mentioned in this thread is because I didn't need any help figuring them out... I knew already where they were going.

What I wasn't sure about was how to split up all the handhelds (answer: one area for XDCAM, another for NXCAM / AVCHD), and whether or not we should label the cine cams forum as being a CineAlta board (answer: no -- because too many CA cams like the F350 don't fit that type, and the FS7 which does fit that type is not CA).

Here's how it stands currently:

Category: Sony Digital Cinema Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony XAVC PMW-F5 / F55 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NXCAM NEX-FS700 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NXCAM NEX-FS100 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony NXCAM / AVCHD Camcorders Forum at DV Info Net

Category: Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony Alpha Mirrorless and DSLR Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NEX-EA50 (all variants) Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900 Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony RX CyberShots and CX Series Camcorders Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-Z7 / HVR-S270 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-Z5 / HDR-FX1000 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-HD1000 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-A1 and HDR-HC Series Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony VX2100 / PD170 / PDX10 Companion Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony TRV950 / PDX10 Companion Forum at DV Info Net

Finally, under "most Recent Additions," there's this:
-- Sony PXW-X70 / FDR-AX100 Forum at DV Info Net

I gotta do something about it (see my earlier whining in this thread). Meanwhile, although we have a category earmarked for NEX models, the FS700 and FS100 did not go there. That's because those two camcorders are first and foremost Digital Cinema Systems Cameras and therefore are "more like" the F3, F5 / F55 and FS7 than the VG30, VG900 or EA50. That's sorta the same issue as the CineAlta question -- where does it go? And the conclusion is that those two NEX cameras are more about Digital Cinema and less about NEX. Hope that makes sense,

Paul Wood · February 10th, 2015, 02:47 PM

Maybe the solution is (with a certain amount of future proofing)

Sony 4K Handhelds, with PMW X70 / FDR AX100, and A7s as sub forums - to be added to as needed, and -

Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems, with Alpha Cameras, NEX EA50, and NEX VG10/20/30/900 as sub forums.

That would separate the A7s from the rest of us who are still using the NEX 5,7, etc 1080p cameras from the 4K, and allow room to add new cameras, and include the Sony range of still/video cameras in the mirrorless/DSLR category.

February 1st, 2015, 06:27 AM	#31
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Sony forum area reorganization That's a VERY good idea Paul. Hopefully Chris can tweak that forum name. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

February 1st, 2015, 02:02 PM	#33
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,252	Re: Sony forum area reorganization ENG and shoulder-mount designation comment. After following this thread and reading the posts I can't help but reminisce a bit. Once upon a time it was the "real photographers" who used 8" x 10" cameras and the 4" x 5" was typically called a press camera. In all the old black & white Hollywood movies if they wanted to have a press core showing there'd be all these guys (wearing hats) with their 4 x 5s using flash bulbs. Time moved on and around the late 1950s the 4 x 5 format became the large format and TLR (Twin Lens Reflex) cameras came in along and the "miniature" 35mm format" which had actually been around since the 1930s but now became really popular. This is for still cameras. What the news reels showed the Press using for video cameras were those huge 35mm cameras with huge spools and maybe a turret mount lens system set on a tripod. With technology advancements the video cameras got smaller. At some point the news media (big three and/or local) made a switch over to video tape (Betamax and VCR) around the 1980s featuring big cams with large battery packs, but much smaller than the old 35mm cams. Then today the cams in popular ENG use have shrunk still further with shoulder-mount models, flash memory, and much smaller batteries. The time is July, 2014: Then along comes what seems to be a game-changer with the portent of things to come: the PXW-X70. No longer a shoulder mount cam but very capable of being used as an ENG cam to cover local news. The x70 is right on the cusp of a new wave of cams with impressive specs. JVC will have their GY-HM200 shortly and the rumor mill has it that Canon will come up with something in this market group, too. And all with OIS (shoulder mount not as important) and 4K capability (better for editing). So what classifies a cam as an ENG cam? Three rings? Shoulder-mount? Heck, we're seeing more and more video on the evening news shot with smart phones that everybody's got. The story is king. For news interviews and reporting, the broadcast companies are penny-pinchers so one-man (person) crews are one way to go and the x70 genre seem to be where things appear be headed, especially with local news companies. What is amazing is the quality one gets now with the new smart phone cams. For their size they're really awesome, and they don't even have any rings! Re: Sony model nomenclature: For me at least, I too have a really difficult time keeping track of the Sony models so a "type of cam" would be a good way to organize. I'm also ready for an upgrade but my need is for a versatile ENG-type-of-cam that is relatively compact like the X70 that is FCPX friendly. They're coming and it's difficult waiting. As an aside, it would be nice to have a "What next cam to get?" section. Currently posts are in areas all over the place.

February 1st, 2015, 03:22 PM	#34
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,016	Re: Sony forum area reorganization There could be a downside to this technological evolution. The smaller the cams are that you use, the less that the public will see you as proper news media. Unless you want to blend in and not be noticed. Andrew

February 2nd, 2015, 02:59 PM	#35
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Sony forum area reorganization ^Guerrilla filmmaking is all about blending in. And with the YouTube generation, that's all they do.

February 8th, 2015, 09:53 PM	#38
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,252	Re: Sony forum area reorganization It may be that a good ENG cam is reaching a size where it can't go much smaller. The optics with OIS and the sensors take up a fair amour of internal space of the cam and shrinking the optics will be really difficult. The glass itself really hasn't changed much in size in the past 50 years. Throw in the OIS and sensors and it adds to the internal volume. In order to have some control rings and various buttons the body shouldn't get much smaller. In the old days of 35mm there was focus, f/stop, shutter speed, and ASA/DIN settings. Life was easy. Today, well …. it's mind boggling. Who ever heard of knee settings??? [Editorial comment: now for some fun] If one is really concerned about the public image then they have to dress it up and act the part: 1. Start with the car with "King TV News" (or whatever the news media name is) plastered on the sides and trunk lid. 2. The pro videographer always wears black video vest. In winter have a black NASCAR-type jacket with red pin-striping. Plaster the sleeves with logos and of course the network proudly emblazoned on the back. Top it off with a black hat with the embroidered patch featuring the company logo, black pants, shoes, and definitely black socks. Headset over the hat and a belt pack around the waist. 3. The cam would have a camera cage or rig with an iKan field monitor, recorder, and all the new fancy electronic goodies that are must- have or in vogue attached and wired up. Throw in an audio case slung over the shoulder. 4. The interviewer has a hand-held RØDE mic (a plug to support our sponsors) with the company name or broadcast letters on four sides and maybe a clipboard or notepad to reference. [Doesn't have to have anything written on the note pad because nobody is going to see it anyway.] 4. Maybe Sony, (this was originally on the Sony board), will donate some embroidered patches for finishing touches. (If you're in the USA south then add STP and Pennzoil patches) [Ed: duck!] "Back to you" (isn't that what they say to the anchor? Or is the weather next?) If after all this, if they can't tell you're pro news media I don't know what will.

February 10th, 2015, 03:59 AM	#39
Derek Heeps Major Player Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Glasgow , Scotland Posts: 224	Re: Sony forum area reorganization I'm sitting here looking at a PDW-F350 which is most certainly shoulder mount ENG type and sports the CineAlta badge on the side - so which of your categories does this fit into ? Also , no one has so far mentioned DV/DVCAM/HDV cameras which a lot of people still use .

February 10th, 2015, 02:47 PM	#41
Paul Wood Major Player Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 485	Re: Sony forum area reorganization Maybe the solution is (with a certain amount of future proofing) Sony 4K Handhelds, with PMW X70 / FDR AX100, and A7s as sub forums - to be added to as needed, and - Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems, with Alpha Cameras, NEX EA50, and NEX VG10/20/30/900 as sub forums. That would separate the A7s from the rest of us who are still using the NEX 5,7, etc 1080p cameras from the 4K, and allow room to add new cameras, and include the Sony range of still/video cameras in the mirrorless/DSLR category.